Best solution for bathrooms

[feministmom4ever]

I recently posted on a Reddit thread to ask transgender people if they felt that third spaces/unisex toilets for transgender/non-binary/gender fluid were a good solution to the bathroom problem. The answer from most was “no”. Mainly the response was TWAW, and since they seem to truly believe that I didn’t bother to argue. They did make one point which I felt held some validity, which was that biological women with a masculine appearance would be harassed. I know this is rare, but there are instances of it happening. Any suggestions for how to address this?

You don't need to address it. There have been 'masculine' looking women in female spaces for donkey's years. Not a problem.

The men are going to have to stay out of spaces where women and little girls are using toilets and undressing.

Its not difficult.

I don't get it. Who would they be harrassed by?

They go on that they only want to use the loo yet they insist it's the women's. It's nothing to do with using the loo it's all to do with getting a sexual kick out of being in a women's private space.

As for masculine women, they still look like women. A man playing at being a women stands out like a sore thumb and if in doubt just say no to them. A man will act very differently when being denied access to a women's loo than a biological women who's denied access or questioned. One will show their male aggression almost immediately.

I agree that people who are biological males should not go into women’s spaces, and I’d like to convince more people. There have been instances where biological women (think butch lesbians) have been harassed by bystanders, men and women, for using a women’s toilet. This is a rare problem, but I’d like to be able to make a good argument as to why we should still protect women only spaces.

the stronger the rule is that 'only biological women go into the womens', the less likely butch women are to be harassed, because if it is inconceivable for a man to go in, then that butch women must really be a woman.

the key reason for enforcing the rule 'only biological women go into the womens' is to make it possible to exclude the men who really don't pass - men in ill fitting dresses, or men in jeans who say 'I am a woman' or just men who are creeps.

if the odd quiet respectful nearly-passing transexual gets in under this system, I don't mind too much. The important thing is that it must be possible to exclude men who are not respectful.

Everyone knows what sex they are. If men who identify as women follow the law (as any decent person will do) and use the toilets for their sex or unisex toilets, then we can get back to trusting the social contract that worked well previously (before the recent era of 'no debate').

The issue is that using a third space means that they would not be validated and that is a big problem for them. It’s part of the fetish. So of course they’re going to say it’s not a solution and of course they’re going to try any kind of gotcha they can.

As Wallace said, there have been masculine women around for a long, long time using the ladies, in the same way as there have been… umm… flamboyant men using the gents and there have been no problems. It’s only become a problem since cross dressing AGPs have felt able to come out in public without being shamed.

I miss shame.

Ah, that's their new tactic, is it? After the 6ft tall, muscly and bearded trans man who would scare the women, now they trot out the woman so masculine she'll be harrassed in the ladies'.

Still a load of crap.

Through my research the answer to gender neutral toilets is no to being the solution too. It’s because females feel unsafe in them and they are less clean. I have quite a few accounts of them being used for sex and drugs in schools. There’s also the problem of someone collapses. Mixed sex toilets are always private which is the attraction for people to do antisocial things in them. It appears that, over time, gender neutral toilets are used more by men.

The safest answer is single sex toilets with door gaps. It particularly keeps anyone experiencing a medical emergency, and women and children safe.

Any mixed sex private toilet in a public space should be very much monitored.

If you pose a question what about this:

You feel nauseous whilst out shopping so you rush to the nearest loo. You lock the door and start being sick. You then have a medical emergency and lose consciousness. Would you rather be in a single sex toilet with door gaps or a private mixed sex toilet?

I do hope you are earning overtime at the moment 😘

If that sounds far fetched in really isn’t. There’s a heart attack and also a stroke every 5 mins in the uk on average. Toilet cubicles even have to have a mechanism to open up from the outside because inward facing doors get jammed shut by a body.

You are using the wrong word. It isn't harassment asking someone if they are in the right loo, or are (general) we changing the meaning of that word as well now?

I am getting moaned at to get to bed 😬😆

I appreciate all the feedback. The social contract is a good counter argument. I don’t expect to convince the AGFs, but I’d like to sway the more reasonable trans people and their supporters.

Unfortunately I’m not using the wrong word. Please Google “butch lesbian in women’s toilet”.

No thanks but now I know for certain you are on a wind up 😂

Transwomen using women’s facilities are the reason some women have become suspicious of masculine-looking women in single-sex spaces.

I’ve never questioned a masculine-looking woman or seen one being challenged. But I’ve heard of it happening more recently.

No one was bothered when only women came into the loos of changing room. Now there’s a real chance it could be a man. Luckily you can usually tell.

Nobody seems to be going for my 😀'dynamic third space' 😀

It would work something like this - the men's toilet is for men only until a transwoman enters at which time it dynamically becomes a shared space.

After the transwoman leaves the space dynamically reverts to being a single sex space.

The same approach would work for hospital wards

It has the added advantage that we wouldn't need to waste money building any actual third spaces.

Awww it's like a non binary /gender fluid toilet 😂

Genius, I hadn't though it through that far

I did.

I got links to some reddit posts. One of them, for example, asked butch lesbians which toilet they use. They almost all said the women's, yet very few mentioned having any problems there, and if they did, their voice cleared any suspicion.

The rest of the links are to private sites, or Pink News, and so on. Nothing reported in actual newspapers.

Also to note is that many of the incidents described take place in the US, not the UK.

So no, there's absolutely not a UK epidemic of butch women being harrassed by other women in the women's toilets.

I’m sorry to have given the impression that I’m not sincere. I truly do want to protect single sex spaces for biological women. I want to learn how to argue my points to those opposed in a way that will be convincing. I like to think that the majority of people can be reasoned with.

" I like to think that the majority of people can be reasoned with."

Thing is, you won't find those reasonable people when discussing with TRAs, because reasonable voices are pushed out of the trans community. There's a very hard orthodox line to toe to be accepted, and any deviation from "TWAW and belong in women's spaces" is not tolerated.

Moreover, even if you did find more reasonable people and managed to convince them, it wouldn't change anything to the official TRA line, which is dictated by the loudest and most demanding voices, not the reasonable ones.

3rd space for those who have actually medically transitioned seems perfectly reasonable. Until we have US style bathroom bills with criminal sanctions for misuse I think most TW will just carry trying their luck until they are challenged. At least the SC have clarified they've no leg to stand on in that case.