Best friend and sister very much TWAW

[IdRatherBeAnonymous]

I'm not from the UK. My family and friends are in a Southern Hemisphere country. This is relevant because this ideology seems to still have a very strong hold there, it's way behind the UK.

Just returned back from visiting them and I'm dismayed to find my very good friend is very much TWAW and has trans friends, so has swallowed it whole.

The topic came up as I asked if she had learned of the Supreme Court ruling in the UK bought by FWS. She expressed she had read it and disagreed. I was surprised as she has an advanced degree... in biology!

So I told her, I used to think as she did, until one piece of logic changed my mind. That if we have self ID (which is law in this country) that ANY MAN can claim to be a woman, so women no longer have any women only spaces because they become for women and for ANY MAN who claims to be a woman for any reason he likes.

She refused to think through the logic and insists that it's so difficult to change the marker on a birth cert. in this country. It's not. It's easier than getting a driving licence. Fill out a form, have a statement witnessed and pay a fee.

I bought up the issue of men incarcerated in prisons with women. She said "but has anything bad happened" and I was so dumbstruck at that comment I did not reply. I have no idea why she seems to have lost her ability to think and care about women.

She said she includes all women. I said, I do too. Especially incarcerated women who are mostly indigenous and have gone through the foster care system, the most vulnerable women. Also, women who are severely disabled, who have a very high rate of experiencing sexual abuse and assault and who require female only intimate care. I care about them and this ideology puts them in danger.

She thinks that this country is different to overseas somehow, that it's not a problem there. Just refused to engage with any concerns for safety and dignity of women.

I let the conversation lapse, it was going nowhere, and I was so stunned tbh.

As for my sister, I know she totally and utterly believes gender ideology as other family members have told me. She also has advanced science degrees. We carefully both seemed to avoid the topic. But I feel like not being able to speak about it is a wedge between us.

Anyway, I'm feeling very dismayed and down about this. I'm having a hard time retaining any respect for their intellectual abilities, despite them both being more highly educated than myself.

I just don't understand how anyone can still swallow this ideology after learning male rapists are locked in prison cells with women, that severely disabled women are being sent male carers, that women have been raped on hospital wards that should be single sex, that men have been given medals on a global stage for punching women in the head.

Has anyone here had a similar situation with very close family or friends and been able to put forward a logical argument that has been successful in getting them to think more critically about this ideology?

I found when I got into an argument about this, they wouldn't listen to logic, but concrete examples helped. I had many (rape crisis, hospital wards, attacks in toilets) and the other person hadn't heard of most of them and most of their arguments were in the order of "be kind," "most marginalised," "where are transwomen supposed to go to the toilet?", "the difference in sporting ability is minimal" and so on.

If your friend and sister already know of these things, I'd ask why those women who are raped/self-exclude from swim sessions/lose medals to males/etc don't matter.

I’d just ask questions tbh, don’t say too much about what you think, but have examples to refer to “is that really true because I heard xyz (and here’s the reference!)’

In my experience, even strongly TWAW believers can talk themselves out of their beliefs this way. If you challenge directly, they tend to dig in. That’s my experience anyway

Is it Australia? Found the hospital I worked for bonkers in their encouragement of medicalising vulnerable children

The only thing i have ever been able to say is 'people have different views on this' and move on as quickly as possible, because I don't want to end up shouting in the faces of people who don't in the least deserve it. I have no idea how they can swallow that nonsense, but they do, and they think exactly the same about me. What really gets me of course is the vast majority are genuinely TERFier than I am, they just don't know it, because they haven't been soaked in this issue since 1995 like I have.

Ultimately, the aim to me is not for everyone to agree, or for anyone to 'see the light'. That's never going to happen, and nor should it. I wanted to keep real sex categories in law, policy, statistical records, healthcare and sport. I wanted lesbians to be able to have and to describe a sexuality that excludes men. I wanted education, particularly sex education, to be based in fact, and for children's healthcare to be embedded within general paediatric services and child development, not tacked on to an adult service. I wanted to know there was still some basic feminist analysis going on in the world. I don't think we're out of the woods, but we are SO much further on than we were.

The next move SHOULD be to focus on homophobic violence against gender nonconforming men and women, ie genuine trans liberation and safety. And it would be nice if the GC side would acknowledge the importance of that. In fact it will undoubtedly be to try and dismantle the Equality Act, since despite everything I could say about Harriet Harman, the Act she oversaw has proved a bulwark against some really bad things, and a basis for that liberatory effort. It is insane that there is not a single out gay footballer in the UK, no transwomen playing for men's teams. That will be progressive and worth fighting for.

Sorry to pivot to the UK...

I remember having not an argument but a sort of discussion with a friend. She was talking about non-binary identities and how valid the are and how people feel so strongly that they don't feel either manly or womanly.

I looked at her quizzically and said "yes but you're still either a male non-binary person or a female non-binary person" and we left it at that. She actually agrees with me now.

I think one subtle comment then just leave it alone can work, you don't want to come across ott.

no, but close

NZ

I had planned on simply asking my sister questions, but after covering another contentious issue I just didn't have the heart for any more confrontation.

So yes, I agree, asking questions and letting it sit is a better approach.

To be fair, I wasn't arguing with my friend so much as pointing out an example (men in womens prisons) of the logical end result of this ideology.

It's all just to utterly disheartening. I'm baffled at their lack of critical thinking, and their refusal to acknowledge the conflict between what TRAs want and womens rights. Both would call themselves feminists.

If that's feminism, I want nothing to do with it.

It's so hard when it's two of the most important women in your life IRL and they're totally utterly believing in something so illogical and incoherent.

Don’t get into pointless arguments with people. The whole thing is dying a natural death and being kept alive by the media and various celebrity tweets

That sounds really hard, OP.

All I'd say is that it's not up to you to change their minds.

I've seen every one of my family come round - sometimes slowly and reluctantly, and sometimes spectacularly fast.

I think concrete examples that counter the abstract points can be useful - here in Scotland Isla Bryson with his tight pink leggings was a very informative object lesson in male rapists being housed in womens prisons.

But timing also counts- Karen White had raped/assaulted women in prison before and it had far less reporting. Like you, I'm scunnered that anyone knows that's happening and isn't appalled..

Anyway, a mixture of acceptance that we can't and won't be able to solve the issue of male violence and abuse, and taking heart that we can and do make small steps towards it may be the best approach. Terf serenity prayer, I suppose.

Concrete examples seem to be the only way to make small punctures which might eventually lead to collapse of the belief.

Helen Joyce suggests that the 2 best entry points are children and sports.

Pictures seem to work best.

ETA I completely understand your amazement at how people can think this way. I’ve reacted quite strongly against friends who otherwise seem liberal and sensible. Fortunately my family are all GC. I think I’d really struggle if they weren’t. That sounds really tough

(Second time I have posted this exact blurb)

I read a tremendous book by David Mccraney, called "how minds change" - it's about how peoples minds really change and what definitely does not make them change. Find the book, read it. But basically, do this - she will come around:
(I have used some web AI tools to get the argument together to work for you, But I have read the book, his podcast, "you are not so smart" is also awesome in general)

1. Switch from “Explaining” to “Exploring”

Your daughter likely sees this issue not as a debate about policies or facts, but as a moral and emotional identity issue. She’s likely coming from a place of compassion and allyship, and any attempt to explain or “correct” her can be received as an attack on her values. Instead of: “I tried to calmly explain to her that no laws have been changed…” Try: “I’m really interested in how you came to see things this way—what was it that really made it click for you?” McRaney’s research (especially on deep canvassing) shows that asking curious, non-judgemental questions helps people reflect on their own beliefs, which can make them more open to new information later. You’re not trying to win, you’re trying to understand.

1. Use “Street Epistemology” and Deep Canvassing Techniques McRaney spends a lot of time with people like Anthony Magnabosco who use a technique called Street Epistemology. Here’s how it works:
2. Ask them what they believe.
3. Ask what led them to that belief.
4. Ask how confident they are in that belief.
5. Gently explore what kind of evidence might cause them to shift their confidence.

You might say: “On a scale from 1 to 10, how confident are you that single-sex spaces should include people based on gender identity rather than biological sex?” Then: “What’s the main reason you feel that confident? Was there something you read or saw that really made it click for you?” Then: “I really want to understand. Is there anything you could learn—any scenario or evidence—that would make you feel less confident, even slightly?” This isn’t a trap—you’re not trying to “catch her out.” You’re helping her engage in metacognition (thinking about her thinking), which McRaney shows is often where belief change begins.

1. Work with Shared Values

You both believe in safety, dignity, compassion, and the importance of fighting injustice. That’s a solid base. Try: “I know you care about protecting vulnerable people—I raised you that way. I care about that too. For me, women are still vulnerable in ways we’ve spent generations trying to address. How do you think we can make sure everyone feels safe—women and trans people—without sacrificing either group?” Appeal to mutual concern, not conflict. You can even validate her fear: “I agree that trans people can be very vulnerable. It’s awful they face violence and rejection. But what happens when two groups’ needs conflict? How do we weigh that up fairly?” This approach avoids framing it as us vs them, and instead opens the door to nuance.

1. Share Stories, Not Stats

McRaney highlights how facts often backfire when they conflict with someone’s identity or moral frame. Instead of showing stats or examples of bad actors, stories work better—especially ones that come from your own experience. 💬 You might say: “I remember when I was young, we weren’t allowed in certain spaces or roles because we were female. We fought to change that. Now, sometimes I feel like we’re being asked to give those hard-won spaces back, and I don’t know how to feel about that.” That’s personal. That’s emotional. That’s real. It invites empathy rather than resistance.

1. Let Go of “Winning”

McRaney’s whole point is that belief change takes time, trust, and many small moments. She may never say “you were right.” But if you stop trying to persuade and start building a space for her to reflect, she might one day say, “I’ve been thinking about what you said…” 🧘 Summary Strategy Technique What to Do Stop explaining Start asking open-ended, curious questions Find shared values Focus on mutual goals (safety, dignity, fairness) Avoid identity threat Don’t label her views, just explore how she got there Use deep canvassing Ask “How confident are you?” and “What makes you feel that way?” Tell your story Share personal experience, not “gotcha” examples Play the long game Trust that seeds take time to grow

Yes, and as per @TangenitalContrivanceexcellent evidence based approach. Although I took this with a very clever TWAW woman friend I knew and she twigged straight away what I was doing and was explosively angry about it. Which of course she also recognised as a sign she was wrong! She cut me off completely, so for some people challenge will be just unbearable no matter how it comes.

How interesting! I do love some psychology …

well that approach is really good. It really does work better than any other

My once best friend was firmly entrenched.

She struggled a bit with self image once she had gone through the menopause and declared that she felt more like a man than a woman and so should probably start using the men's toilets as she now had more in common with men anyway.

We had a 'bit of a disagreement' about it 5 years ago and I haven't spoken to her since.

She is a nurse.

@TangenitalContrivance
That is most excellent advice, thank you!

For now, I expect that it will be a topic that my sister and I do not speak about. I might try some gentle questioning next time we speak though, as having this hanging between us is pretty awful (for me, I think she just thinks I'm a bigot)

I now live overseas so I probably won't see my friend again for another two years, so lets see if the bubble back in my home country is burst by then.