Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed. - Centre for Women's Studies response to Court ruling.

173 replies

IwantToRetire · 03/05/2025 02:00

The Centre for Women's Studies joins other UK university centres, research groups and networks in gender/sexuality/feminist/women’s studies to issue a statement about the Supreme Court judgment on the meaning of ’sex’ in the Equality Act 2010.

The statement reaffirms our commitment to trans-inclusion, and expresses deep concern about the judgment and its effects on trans, non-binary, intersex, and all gender nonconforming people.

https://www.york.ac.uk/womens-studies/news-and-events/news/trans-inclusion/

We reject the framing in the media and in public discourse that puts women, and/or feminists, at odds with trans people. This is especially the case in relation to the inclusion of trans women in women’s spaces. Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed. The rights of trans people and the rights of cisgender women are inherently connected. As academic experts on sex and gender, we do not agree that biological sex is ‘self-explanatory.’ As feminists, we see the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ to vilify and exclude trans people as shameful.

From the full statement available at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTlPrVc6AjQSFRYgnpfggRZii7ee0LWmZUxH32cNojIExJzYUdqQLVLGbkIZwMi17UZDAijyiKB1Q9t/pub

(Can we blame Judith Butler for this word salad or is it inherently part of being an "academic expert on sex and gender")

OP posts:
MrGHardy · 03/05/2025 22:47

As academic experts on sex and gender, we do not agree that biological sex is ‘self-explanatory.’

Say the social 'scientists'.

(no offense to any social scientists here).

I mean, they talk about womanhood but then make a statement about biological sex. How can you be so daft? The point they want to contest is whether the latter determines the former, not whether the latter is self-explanatory or not.

wacademia · 03/05/2025 22:52

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 03/05/2025 11:59

This reminded me of the case of the woman in a vegetative state who was raped by her care worker and became pregnant, still a woman and so vulnerable.

Aye, what's her "gender identity"?

wacademia · 03/05/2025 22:55

Chrysanthemum5 · 03/05/2025 12:29

Pressed send by mistake!
People who signed that letter who said that biological sex is real have been put on a list of 'bad people' by members of my institution. And they won't work with anyone who signed the letter

So the discrimination is not always visible

I believe that James Esses is collecting whistleblowing disclosures about this kind of thing.

Namechangechanged · 03/05/2025 23:02

LizzieSiddal · 03/05/2025 07:49

I want to ask them how they define babies if they define sex by “lived experience”.

Excellent point

wacademia · 03/05/2025 23:11

wacademia · 03/05/2025 22:55

I believe that James Esses is collecting whistleblowing disclosures about this kind of thing.

https://x.com/JamesEsses/status/1915306058018427023

Weefreetiffany · 03/05/2025 23:37

Womanhood came to me with pain and blood. My body changed. The way I was perceived and judged changed. Puberty was awful but not all bad. I didnt buy a lipstick or make some late stage capitalism fashion statement to become a woman. I just am a woman for reasons beyond my control. In the same way I couldn't control my babies growing in my uterus, cell division followed cell division, following the path to birth. It just happened. It is and it was. I created life several times. I gave birth twice. I breast fed. There are many womanly things I wont experience, or havent yet. I have my individual experience and expectations. I can understand other womens experience and expectations. I understand feeling uncomfortable in your body many times over. The irony is nobody wants to see the pain and blood, they want lipstick and a fairy tale and us to fade kindly, like good mothers, into the background while the children alternately tantrum and shine. I want to define myself and not be told what i am and what im allowed to be by people who only understand the secondary sexual characteristics and sexualisation but none of the blood and pain and hormone fuckery and being exhausted by unmet expectations. Yeah put on a dress and pass, never mind some vulnerable woman in a hospital bed in fear that shes not allowed to articulate. Shes used to the blood and pain. It’s womanhood. Yes i am more than my biology, but so much of my lived experience is shaped by my biology that to ask me to ignore is ridiculous to the point of wilful ignorance.

NorthernBogbean · 03/05/2025 23:46

A great example of an academic cul de sac caused by replacing questions and research with beliefs.

Back in the day, wimmin's studies asked some fabulous questions and this current refusal to admit that being female is biological is the strange outcome of conceptually separating the biological female from the performance of 'femininity'. Learning to be a woman referred to the intense socialisation of females and their unconscious conformity to the idea of what societies had decided femininity was. It was meant to question the idea that biological femaleness produced 'femininity'.

And now, following the academic labyrinth ever inwards, this has become 'you cannot define women by biology'.

Heck.

IwantToRetire · 03/05/2025 23:50

A PP asked why do people feel the need to make these statements.

On one level it seems to me it is nothing more of less than virture signally. By one very small elite group to a number of other small elite groups.

And it is just a likely they do it just for that reason. To be sure to remain on the invite list of the other elites.

And even, if in this instance you might think well it is Centre for Women's Studies, so maybe they would feel it is within their remit it doesn't help that they dont acknowledge that there are women (and men) who firmly believe that sex is a biological fact.

So in fact given their belief, why are they the Centre for Women's Studies. Shouldn't they be the Centre for Lived Experience Studies?

OP posts:
Mmmnotsure · 03/05/2025 23:58

The irony is nobody wants to see the pain and blood, they want lipstick and a fairy tale and us to fade kindly, like good mothers, into the background while the children alternately tantrum and shine.

@Weefreetiffany Thank you for this.

TooBigForMyBoots · 04/05/2025 00:12

Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed.

Even if we are to accept that womanhood is an "experience" rather than biological fact, womanhood (AHF) is the point after girls (young human female) go through female puberty.

Transwomen have never experienced girl-hood. They have never experienced female puberty. They were born boys. They grew up boys, albeit boys who felt out of place/ body. Their experience is a rarity, only experienced by males. Never experienced by girls and women.

Woman is not a feeling.

inkymoose · 04/05/2025 03:17

TheOtherRaven · 03/05/2025 13:17

They were targeted by the political movement as was every other women's space or group with the word 'women' in the title. Every actual woman in the place who was not compliant has long since been disposed of, the whole point was to enforce on the world that woman and anything for women and about women was in fact all about men, and the witches who would argue that men weren't women were disposed of. The idea was to stamp out actual feminism and replace it, and to change the culture entirely from within, it was rather like the Americans did to the Native Americans, stamping out their culture and language and heritage and voices and enforcing the 'right way' upon them. And shunting them out of the way to take over everything they had.

The Universities equally sent out the graduates well indoctrinated with batshit who were employed for their batshit views by those who were recruiting to maintain the pure integrity of the batshit. No staff with diverse views would have survived in post.

Women's studies to them and anything else to do with women is all about and only about women being a mixed sex group where all the important ones are definitely men and the non-men ones are the servant class. They are a mens rights movement in deep cover, and probably in denial. This is rather like what the official vegan movement would look like ten years down the line if all the groups and policies and recruitment had been controlled by a cattle ranch baron. It would have about the same relation to actual vegans as this group do to women.

Colonialism in action.

Edited

Your description reminds me of the life cycle of the parasitic wasp whose grubs eat the host creature from the inside out.

The parasite isn't hoping to gain a greater understanding of its poor compliant host. When it's nearly dead, the host won't have much to say about its experience of being eaten alive. It will be wondering what happened, perhaps.

inkymoose · 04/05/2025 03:44

MrGHardy · 03/05/2025 22:47

As academic experts on sex and gender, we do not agree that biological sex is ‘self-explanatory.’

Say the social 'scientists'.

(no offense to any social scientists here).

I mean, they talk about womanhood but then make a statement about biological sex. How can you be so daft? The point they want to contest is whether the latter determines the former, not whether the latter is self-explanatory or not.

"Academic experts on sex and gender" have no business making wildly contradictory statements about womanhood or manhood or any other thing. Reading their statements is guaranteed to bring on cognitive dissonance like an incandescent migraine, ensuring that anyone who's trying to grapple with the language used has to take to their bed for several days before they can even contemplate any kind of counter argument.

Womanhood is a literary term which is more often used in poetry or literature than in scientific papers. If you reverse it and talk about manhood, the statement becomes comical.

Namechangechanged · 04/05/2025 07:09

IwantToRetire · 03/05/2025 23:50

A PP asked why do people feel the need to make these statements.

On one level it seems to me it is nothing more of less than virture signally. By one very small elite group to a number of other small elite groups.

And it is just a likely they do it just for that reason. To be sure to remain on the invite list of the other elites.

And even, if in this instance you might think well it is Centre for Women's Studies, so maybe they would feel it is within their remit it doesn't help that they dont acknowledge that there are women (and men) who firmly believe that sex is a biological fact.

So in fact given their belief, why are they the Centre for Women's Studies. Shouldn't they be the Centre for Lived Experience Studies?

Good point but I would go one step further and change name to Centre for Non-Critical Thinking “Academic Experts” or even close it down. As I said earlier, their statement is embarrassing to read. It’s meaningless.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/05/2025 08:55

wacademia · 03/05/2025 22:39

The thing with this letter is that individual academics haven't signed, heads of research units have signed on behalf of the entire research unit. I bet they didn't get everyone in the research unit to agree first. That top-down imposition of an opinion on an entire research unit crosses the line from academic freedom to creating a hostile working environment for dissenters within the unit, especially junior staff and students. It won't be possible for dissenters to have their academic freedom in such a unit.

In that case... let's have at it.

Academics get to explore the boundaries of what a woman is. We do get to ask weird and wonderful questions about things everyone else takes for granted. That's our privilege. Sometimes we come up with suprising answers that are useful out there in the real world. Sometimes we come up with cabbage. And that's OK. But in return we apply academic rigour to figuring out the answers to our whacky questions and we don't silence people who have different answers.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/05/2025 08:58

(I'm noisly agreeing with you @LonginesPrime and @wacademia n case there was any doubt 😀)

Evolutionarygoals · 04/05/2025 09:40

busybusybusy2015 · 03/05/2025 09:22

Probably best to bypass archaeology at York too 😉 (the source of an unpleasant shit-stirring woman-denying 'open letter' for which York archaeologists are currently trying to drum up signatories)

Ah, man, I'm scared to ask but do you have a link to that? I did my undergrad there many many years ago so I have a morbid curiosity urging me to see how far downhill it's gone...

Hedgehogmud · 04/05/2025 10:06

Archaeologists can identify female bones from male ones with a reasonable degree of certainty. I have no idea how they can possibly claim that that being female is not biological.

I would agree that womanhood is lived (oddly Victorian word to use)…by women.

HesSoBadHesGood · 04/05/2025 10:10

Gender Detective was kicked off Medium for this. It goes back a few years but the Centre for Women's Studies should read today:

An Open Letter to the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.

Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path. What do you do?

The answer is obvious, hopefully. You scream. You shout. You wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. I’m not sure if I am. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they exist as mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the whole truth is never so simple.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take your time and capture all the nuance?
Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, hove in the grey space between the two categories. If you can’t even explain why the man on the tracks is alive, what “alive” even means, then what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhaps no moral truths exist, and your efforts to save him are completely irrational. Can you be sure it’s right to intervene, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

Looking back, what started out so simple ends up quite complex —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’s you on the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks is ground into bits. Not because your position is unassailable. Because even bringing it up makes you an asshole.

That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? If so, the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept.

So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to deciding which perspective gets ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:
It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until we suddenly decided we don’t even know what the fuck we meant this whole time.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim for the imprecision of their screams. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the sound of grinding bone. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions that don’t make a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? Does P = NP? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave women alone.
Written by
Gender Detective

inkymoose · 04/05/2025 10:25

@HesSoBadHesGood I'm not going to quote gender detective because it is inordinately long. Also I imagine it is written by a man, although women are capable of rambling, too.

But well said.

stillshrinkingthisspring · 04/05/2025 10:52

This is as true as

’Being human is lived; it isn’t biologically given or legally bestowed’

ie bollocks

Namechangechanged · 04/05/2025 11:18

stillshrinkingthisspring · 04/05/2025 10:52

This is as true as

’Being human is lived; it isn’t biologically given or legally bestowed’

ie bollocks

😆

inkymoose · 04/05/2025 11:26

stillshrinkingthisspring · 04/05/2025 10:52

This is as true as

’Being human is lived; it isn’t biologically given or legally bestowed’

ie bollocks

I fear I need to step away from these threads for awhile because I'm becoming so angry.

I don't know who first started using the expression "lived experience" but whoever it was (like the man who invented the cockerpoo and then wished he hadn't) triggered something in the collective unconscious, a horrible explosion of righteousness and superiority splatting its mundane stain in self-righteous writings everywhere, worse than tomato soup on a van Gogh.

I became a feminist in my teens, when I discovered what a feminist was. During my reasonably long life so far, women in my life have suffered and also died from conditions that arose in their women's bodies. Two of them had breast cancer, one had ovarian cancer, one had a stillbirth, one had cervical cancer. One had a series of undignified medical interventions for infertility. Several have had undignified and painful experiences relating to medical treatment, such as being examined vaginally while pregnant by a male consultant who did not look them in the face. One suffered a manual removal of placenta after birth which is like having somebody grope around inside your body with a hateful claw pulling it to pieces. One had a DandC and cauterisation, which is a procedure done under anaesthetic where the womb is scraped out to get rid of any "products of conception" and the vagina is cauterised which means burning it, it is then packed with gauze which has to be removed by pulling it out. One had an ectopic pregnancy, several had extremely traumatic and difficult births needing medical intervention to get the baby out, ventouse, forceps, Caesarean section.

All of these everyday horrors are commonplace among the women I know. If the women I know are still alive, then they have recovered, but they haven't forgotten, there's still pain in the memory, and the pain is there because of their woman's body.

MrGHardy · 04/05/2025 12:01

inkymoose · 04/05/2025 03:44

"Academic experts on sex and gender" have no business making wildly contradictory statements about womanhood or manhood or any other thing. Reading their statements is guaranteed to bring on cognitive dissonance like an incandescent migraine, ensuring that anyone who's trying to grapple with the language used has to take to their bed for several days before they can even contemplate any kind of counter argument.

Womanhood is a literary term which is more often used in poetry or literature than in scientific papers. If you reverse it and talk about manhood, the statement becomes comical.

Quite.

This 'academic' field, like many others, is a house of cards. People making things up, other people citing them, and you end up with people claiming they are 'experts'. When in actual fact there is no basis in logic, data, or even reality to anything they say.

SueSuddio · 04/05/2025 12:56

Well fuck me.

Maybe you should tell all those women in Afghanistan that they can identify out of their oppression by living in 'manhood' instead and therefore having the right to say they are actually men, therefore they can walk outside unchaperoned, get jobs, not have to cover up every inch of their bodies.

I'd laugh at this drivel if it didn't just make me so angry.

Overtheatlantic · 04/05/2025 15:53

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/05/2025 08:55

In that case... let's have at it.

Academics get to explore the boundaries of what a woman is. We do get to ask weird and wonderful questions about things everyone else takes for granted. That's our privilege. Sometimes we come up with suprising answers that are useful out there in the real world. Sometimes we come up with cabbage. And that's OK. But in return we apply academic rigour to figuring out the answers to our whacky questions and we don't silence people who have different answers.

This is such a word salad. “Academic rigour” applied to whacky questions? Wtf?

Swipe left for the next trending thread