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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed. - Centre for Women's Studies response to Court ruling.

173 replies

IwantToRetire · 03/05/2025 02:00

The Centre for Women's Studies joins other UK university centres, research groups and networks in gender/sexuality/feminist/women’s studies to issue a statement about the Supreme Court judgment on the meaning of ’sex’ in the Equality Act 2010.

The statement reaffirms our commitment to trans-inclusion, and expresses deep concern about the judgment and its effects on trans, non-binary, intersex, and all gender nonconforming people.

https://www.york.ac.uk/womens-studies/news-and-events/news/trans-inclusion/

We reject the framing in the media and in public discourse that puts women, and/or feminists, at odds with trans people. This is especially the case in relation to the inclusion of trans women in women’s spaces. Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed. The rights of trans people and the rights of cisgender women are inherently connected. As academic experts on sex and gender, we do not agree that biological sex is ‘self-explanatory.’ As feminists, we see the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ to vilify and exclude trans people as shameful.

From the full statement available at
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTlPrVc6AjQSFRYgnpfggRZii7ee0LWmZUxH32cNojIExJzYUdqQLVLGbkIZwMi17UZDAijyiKB1Q9t/pub

(Can we blame Judith Butler for this word salad or is it inherently part of being an "academic expert on sex and gender")

OP posts:
TheOtherRaven · 03/05/2025 09:54

The word 'women' is in their title, like anything with women in the title they were targeted, captured, controlled and made into a good little mouthpiece for men who wished to identify as women, which starts with rejecting biology, the value of womanhood, respect for women and everything but the gender catechism. They don't represent women and haven't for years.

Very few women's organisations have managed to survive with women's voices and women centred. This is another part of the hydra trying frantically to make it sound like women love being harassed, raped, assaulted, excluded, strip searched, driven out of their own spaces and resources, and right thinking women always are all about and only about trans identifying men. And now everybody knows it.

You'd think the amount 'authenticity' gets blethered on about this might actually matter to this political ideology. It doesn't. And it's in plain sight.

mumda · 03/05/2025 09:58

Womanhood is lived
However it is only lived by biological women.

The commonly described five stages of grief are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

OminousFlute · 03/05/2025 10:02

Merrymouse · 03/05/2025 08:43

AMAZING IF TRUE! No more periods, contraception, miscarriages, menopause, endometriosis, pregnancy, FGM, sex specific cancers. You just have to unlive your sex! When are they providing details of how to do this? Will obviously change things completely in Afghanistan.

WHY DID NO ONE TELL ME SOONER?

MarieDeGournay · 03/05/2025 10:05

'Womanhood is lived'? Of course it is, but you have to be something to live it. I can't live premier-league-footballerhood; or knitterhood; or wolfhood; or Chinesehood. Only people who actually are those things can live them.

That's just one of the silly things in their statement - there's also the use of Intersex (oh do keep up at the back!), the SC's alleged 'refusal' to hear trans voices..

The main signatories are from York, but there are 37 other signatories.
It's an embarrassment, and it's incredible that nobody in the 37 other places didn't at the very least question the use of 'intersex' and the facts about who the SC heard.

Which makes me wonder - was everybody consulted about becoming signatories to such an embarrassing document, and do they all stand by it? Does anybody who works in the 38 signatory institutions feel that releasing badly worded and factually dodgy documents like this does nothing for their reputations at a difficult time for higher ed? Is there some worried cringing going in some of the 38 locations?

ThisHangrySheep · 03/05/2025 10:08

Tripleblue · 03/05/2025 06:59

Nobody is that stupid. So they must have been paid to say this or something?
This drive to eliminate women's rights in the west is funded by someone.

Men. With an end result something like Handmaid’s Tale. The only use we have for Libertarian wannabe transhumanists is our function as livestock.

TheCourseOfTheRiverChanged · 03/05/2025 10:12

@HopingForTheBest25
"Funny how all their emphasis is on transwomen's 'rights' and very little mention of transmen (you know, the actual biologically female trans people). "
Good spot.

LonginesPrime · 03/05/2025 10:14

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 03/05/2025 09:43

@LonginesPrime I wouldn't want to push that argument too far. I'm not a letter-signer myself but I have friends who signed open letters in support of GC academics when that was generally seen as just stirring up trouble and contention.

And academic freedom and free speech matter too. These academics are being utter tits but I'm not going to bring the law down hard on them or their bosses for this.

But gender critical beliefs are lawful, so the letters your friends wouldn’t have been breaching the law.

Furthermore, I’d argue that the fact those GC letters felt unlawful and risky to sign despite their being perfectly valid positions to take in the protection of freedom of thought is exactly why it’s so important that gender critical beliefs are protected in law now, given they’re so unpopular in some circles that seek to stifle debate.

The bullying culture around women’s rights and freedom of thought in academia is exactly why these kinds of letters should be called out when they break the law. Women have two key legal protections (i.e. Forstater and the SC ruling) that we didn’t have when the Kathleen Stock debacle happened, so why would we not use them to protect our rights?

This letter is states that women (who share the protected characteristic of sex) shouldn’t have the rights they have under the law, and I’d argue this is tantamount to saying that Muslims or disabled people shouldn’t have protection under the Equality Act. Would it be ok for a university to publish a statement saying that?

If an organisation or an individual puts their name to something, it’s perfectly reasonable to assume they stand by the letter they’ve signed.

Do you think there’s a difference between an institution signing a pubic statement that someone else has drafted and releasing a statement itself? Surely the only difference is “everyone else is doing it”?

ThorsRaven · 03/05/2025 10:38

We reject the framing in the media and in public discourse that puts women, and/or feminists, at odds with trans people.

Then you are rejecting reality. There is clearly a conflict between women and transactivists - that's how we've ended up this whole kerfuffle and multiple court cases.

Womanhood is lived...

In what way? How does a woman live? What criteria does a persons life have to meet in order to be classed as a woman?

If a teenage girl has an accident and is sadly left in a permanent vegetative state, and she survives for 20 years, is she now a woman? Is she still a girl? Or are all unconscious people somehow 'un-gendered' and no-one has any idea whether they're a man or woman?

it is not biologically given or legally bestowed.

By whom? Who is giving or bestowing? God? Society?

Sex cannot be taken away. You can't have your 'woman card' taken away for not being woman enough. But that is what you seem to be suggesting - that if someone doesn't perform 'woman' or 'man' properly, some entity will remove their 'woman card'.

The rights of trans people and the rights of cisgender women are inherently connected.

The rights of women, regardless of how they identify, are obviously connected.

The demands of men are connected to the rights of women, because frequently, the demands of men infringe upon the rights of women.

As academic experts on sex and gender, we do not agree that biological sex is ‘self-explanatory.’

Where do babies come from?

As feminists, we see the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ to vilify and exclude trans people as shameful.

You think it's OK to weaponise 'TW safety' to vilify, shame and bully society into degrading womens' right to single sex spaces.

But if women point out that we want to be safe, then that's an attack on a certain group of males, and that's a bad thing?

You are not feminists.

Merrymouse · 03/05/2025 11:15

At a time when universities are under immense financial pressure, presumably, having finally established that women don’t exist, the department can close?

Catiette · 03/05/2025 11:25

It's badly written, misrepresents the legal process, and shows a school-level understanding (I honestly wouldn't even go as high as undergraduate) of the nuances of sex and gender. To be generous, maybe they weren't more Butlerian/-esque to make it accessible to a wider audience... (although is this actually being generous? 😂)

I re-wrote it out of sheer frustration to explore what they could have said to respect both groups and represent the situation more accurately and, er... lawfully.

Of course, my GC-bias will still show through, but still, 1) my version is more in line with the law & 2) sympathetic to both affected groups.

It wasn't difficult.

What they appear to have said, as a TLDR: women don't need or deserve a word for themselves or sex-based rights.

What I wish they'd said, that I could get behind (VV long, so read at own risk...!):

...

This judgment, which states that ‘sex’ for the purposes of the Act refers to the ‘sex of a person at birth’, was handed down after a case in which women’s interests were represented by a grassroots group supporting sex-based rights, and trans women’s interests by the Scottish government and Amnesty International. National trans advocacy organisations were also offered the opportunity to contribute on behalf of individual trans people, in line with standard Supreme Court process.

We believe the judgement provides clarity on the meaning of sex in law, thereby mitigating ongoing misogynistic opportunism and harm to trans people in a fraught area. For example, we are reassured by responses by the Equality and Human Rights Commission and organisations such as the British Transport Police, as the judgement has placed much-needed pressure on these organisations to uphold the law by providing female-only facilities and services. Such responses will protect women’s safety, privacy and dignity, by enabling the full participation in society of vulnerable females including victims of male violence and members of religious minorities. However, the judgement also highlights trans people’s status and needs.

It is important to note the Supreme Court emphasises the ongoing protection of trans people from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment, and asserts the importance of their access to appropriate facilities, too. However, it appears that long-term misrepresentation the law by multiple public institutions which have encouraged trans women to use female-only facilities and services has led to lost opportunities to promote and fund provision for these people. We are keen to support such organisations now as they redirect their efforts towards this.

As such, we recognise the complexity of balancing of the of rights of women and trans women. This is especially the case in relation to the inclusion of trans women in women’s spaces. Female members of our society clearly require specific accommodations for their lived biological experiences, including but not limited to: menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, and menopause, and their statistically proven vulnerability to violence perpetrated by males including both “cis-“ men and “trans women”. As feminists, we see the weaponisation of women’s desire for these accommodations to vilify them as TERFS, bigots or fascists and silence their voices, as utterly shameful.

However, in addition to the importance of recognizing the female experience, we also recognize that womanhood may be seen as a complex, gendered construct which is, in contrast, not biologically given or legally bestowed, and is, rather, lived by a wider range of individuals, including both women and trans women. From this perspective, the rights of trans women and women may be seen to overlap.

As academic experts on sex and gender, we further acknowledge the existence of Differences of Sexual Development (so-called “intersex” individuals) and are concerned by the weaponization of such conditions to support arguments that biological sex is not ‘self-explanatory.’ It Is self-evident that every single human to existence is the product of a male and a female reproductive system, making biological sex one of the few true binaries in nature. However, it is also self-evident that there are natural variations and outliers within this which must be accommodated. We feel that this should be on the basis of these groups’ own unique needs.

We view this judgment and the damaging responses to it such as threats of violence levelled at feminists as part of a broader trend of backsliding on women’s equality, which is also harming marginalised groups and gender nonconforming people. Discrimination does not exist in isolation, and the stripping away of women’s legal protections (now re-established in law) has threatened us all. The reality of sex has been subsumed into and confused with a gendered construct of “lived womanhood”, leading to the loss of previously well-functioning single-sex facilities, services and associated social contracts, including the quiet accommodation of transwomen in female-only spaces. The assertion of this undefinable quality of “womanhood” has resulted in intensified regulation of the borders of gender expression, while denying a simple truth: that women require specific accommodations acknowledging their bodily reality, beyond which they are wholly autonomous individuals unlimited by reductive “gender identities”.

Our support for women’s rights, LGB rights, and trans rights, including safe and inclusive healthcare and sanitary facilities for all, is steadfast. As such, we are delighted by the Supreme Court’s confirmation that the 51% of the population known as “women” retain their legal rights and words; that trans men retain vital access to maternity protections; and that lesbian same-sex attraction, recently homophobically described as a form of “racism”, is recognised as real and also legally protected. We also recognize the challenges the judgment presents to trans women in particular, and are keen to do everything we can within UK law to protect this group, starting by adding our voices to calls for third spaces (alongside the male toilets a proportion already use, accessible toilets and evolving gender-neutral provision) to accommodate them fully alongside women.

Catiette · 03/05/2025 11:29

PS I'm not personally on board with my 5th "womanhood" paragraph, but find it useful to try to empathise with and acknowledge "both sides" (hint, hint, York!)

LonginesPrime · 03/05/2025 11:36

Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed.

I do love the strawman assertion that anyone who believes in biology must have some theistic religious reason for doing so.

Catiette · 03/05/2025 11:40

My statement above is honestly the kind of thing I expected from a lot of places after the judgement. Sadly, it turns out, I had to write it myself! In its place, the outpouring of misrepresentation, hyperbolising and astonishing denial of women's existence as a recognisable demographic with unique needs and rights distressed me intensely in the immediate aftermath. I've not yet posted on the thread exploring this, but really do get it. But, as someone said there, the backlash, and that swing from sheer relief at being recognised in law and given back our words to feeling something far darker, was inevitable. It's good to be back on the usual GC equilibrium now of my usual horror at the prevalence of misogyny... offset by recognising that we can only fight this if we can actually see it - and that we're winning the fight, over time. We're getting there. This judgement was a big step forward, and the backlash a necessary phase for all sides to process and address its implications. And statements like the original above? Great - let them speak: let them put their blinkered outlook on indefinite record, so it can never be denied, but must, at some point, be addressed.

NameChangedOfc · 03/05/2025 11:52

I can't... 😭 The Centre for Women's Studies... 😔

Catiette · 03/05/2025 11:54

NameChangedOfc · 03/05/2025 11:52

I can't... 😭 The Centre for Women's Studies... 😔

Well, quite! (As usual, someone says in a single line what I use a couple of hundred words to say. 😅)

SulkySeagull · 03/05/2025 11:54

I’m white. Imagine if I decided tomorrow I was black, because blackhood is lived? What would people have to say about that?!

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 03/05/2025 11:56

Note to self: York University women’s studies people are mad as a box of frogs.

MarieDeGournay · 03/05/2025 11:56

Catiette · 03/05/2025 11:40

My statement above is honestly the kind of thing I expected from a lot of places after the judgement. Sadly, it turns out, I had to write it myself! In its place, the outpouring of misrepresentation, hyperbolising and astonishing denial of women's existence as a recognisable demographic with unique needs and rights distressed me intensely in the immediate aftermath. I've not yet posted on the thread exploring this, but really do get it. But, as someone said there, the backlash, and that swing from sheer relief at being recognised in law and given back our words to feeling something far darker, was inevitable. It's good to be back on the usual GC equilibrium now of my usual horror at the prevalence of misogyny... offset by recognising that we can only fight this if we can actually see it - and that we're winning the fight, over time. We're getting there. This judgement was a big step forward, and the backlash a necessary phase for all sides to process and address its implications. And statements like the original above? Great - let them speak: let them put their blinkered outlook on indefinite record, so it can never be denied, but must, at some point, be addressed.

Edited

There is a thread about feeling disheartened after the SC ruling, and I share with you the feeling of intense distress at seeing such an apparent legal slam dunk being picked apart [excuse mixed metaphors] before the ink was dry on it [oh look another metaphor!]

As I've said elsewhere it felt even worse from an Irish perspective, because our legislators, under the spell of a trans rights organisation which completely captured many areas of the establishment, removed the word 'sex' from equality legislation and replaced it with 'gender'. So we could never have a court case like that brought by FWS - though now I think of it, a High Court ruling on the meaning of the term 'gender' would be very interesting!

You at least have the word 'sex' in your legislation, and a clear legal definition of it now. Footstampers gonna footstamp, but like you say Catiette, let them speak, because they are revealing their disregard for the law as well as their well-known disregard for biological science.

The more people realise how outlandish their thoughts are, the more public support for them will shrink. The '#bekind to the tiny number of lovely lovely transwomen who only want to pee in peace and you wouldn't even know they are there' line is being demolished by the TRAs themselves.

EasternStandard · 03/05/2025 11:57

NameChangedOfc · 03/05/2025 11:52

I can't... 😭 The Centre for Women's Studies... 😔

I thought we’d moved on. Still some lagging

Merrymouse · 03/05/2025 11:58

RedToothBrush · 03/05/2025 09:30

Ok then.

If it's 'lived'

Please write a definition of this, which is workable in law and will give women protection from discrimination.

Are we going to end up with idiots writing shit like 'anyone who wears a dress or lipstick' leaving women with no choice but to wear a dress or lipstick otherwise they might lose their rights?

Have they actually fucking thought this through?

You cant legislate for sex discrimination on the basis of sex being a philosophical idea that's a fuzzy concept in someones hand you absolute roasters. All you end up doing is removing rights for all minority groups (including transpeople) because you can no longer clearly identify the people who need legal protection cos the law cant see them.

Stop trying to Marty McFly us!

Who needs equality law?

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Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 03/05/2025 11:59

ThorsRaven · 03/05/2025 10:38

We reject the framing in the media and in public discourse that puts women, and/or feminists, at odds with trans people.

Then you are rejecting reality. There is clearly a conflict between women and transactivists - that's how we've ended up this whole kerfuffle and multiple court cases.

Womanhood is lived...

In what way? How does a woman live? What criteria does a persons life have to meet in order to be classed as a woman?

If a teenage girl has an accident and is sadly left in a permanent vegetative state, and she survives for 20 years, is she now a woman? Is she still a girl? Or are all unconscious people somehow 'un-gendered' and no-one has any idea whether they're a man or woman?

it is not biologically given or legally bestowed.

By whom? Who is giving or bestowing? God? Society?

Sex cannot be taken away. You can't have your 'woman card' taken away for not being woman enough. But that is what you seem to be suggesting - that if someone doesn't perform 'woman' or 'man' properly, some entity will remove their 'woman card'.

The rights of trans people and the rights of cisgender women are inherently connected.

The rights of women, regardless of how they identify, are obviously connected.

The demands of men are connected to the rights of women, because frequently, the demands of men infringe upon the rights of women.

As academic experts on sex and gender, we do not agree that biological sex is ‘self-explanatory.’

Where do babies come from?

As feminists, we see the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ to vilify and exclude trans people as shameful.

You think it's OK to weaponise 'TW safety' to vilify, shame and bully society into degrading womens' right to single sex spaces.

But if women point out that we want to be safe, then that's an attack on a certain group of males, and that's a bad thing?

You are not feminists.

This reminded me of the case of the woman in a vegetative state who was raped by her care worker and became pregnant, still a woman and so vulnerable.

DuesToTheDirt · 03/05/2025 12:04

Needspaceforlego · 03/05/2025 02:08

Womanhood is lived; it is not biologically given or legally bestowed.

Please tell me how womanhood is lived???

And vice versa Please tell me how manhood is lived ???

What's the difference?
It's certainly not clothes my jeans and my timberland boots definitely don't make me a man.
And a man is certainly entitled to wear a dress or a frilly top but it doesn't make him a woman

I'll tell you how I live "womanhood" - I live it by coming on these threads and getting angry at the people ignoring, dismissing, or attempting to remove women's rights! Is that what transwomen do? I don't think so!

Catiette · 03/05/2025 12:08

SulkySeagull · 03/05/2025 11:54

I’m white. Imagine if I decided tomorrow I was black, because blackhood is lived? What would people have to say about that?!

Well, maybe something like the following (as a deeply uncomfortable, satirical thought experiment)?

We reject the framing in the media and in public discourse that puts PoC at odds with self-declared PoC such as Rachel Dolezal. This is especially the case in relation to the inclusion of such individuals in PoCs' advocacy. PoCs' experience is lived; it is unrelated to race or ethnicity, nor should it be defined in law. The rights of self-identifying PoC and the rights of PoC themselves are inherently connected. As academic experts on race and ethnicity, we do not agree that PoC exist as a recognisable demographic in themselves. As such, we see the weaponisation of accusations of racism to vilify and exclude those who self-declare their skin colour as shameful.

Or not. Thank goodness. I didn't like writing that, even as an intellectual exercise. And of course it's not a direct equivalent to the women / trans women issue, for all kinds of reasons. But it does, I think, help to show why this absolute, insistent conflation of trans women and women is problematic, at the very least.

Elephantsarenottheonlyfruit · 03/05/2025 12:21

I feel like my womanhood is lived, but not in the way they mean.
My womanhood experience has been formed by my biology (puberty, pregnancy illness, birth injuries, breastfeeding etc). The prejudices I have experienced in education, the workplace, in the world in general have been based on my biological womanhood, these have been part of my experience of being recognised (physically) as a woman.
The expectations of how I should behave and conduct myself, that formed my personality and meant the life and professional opportunities I sought or were given were different (and less) than if I had been a male, were because I am a female.
When I have been sexually assaulted, coerced or predated upon by men, they recognised I was a woman (I didn’t tell them I was).
Being a woman all of my life has formed and shaped my life, which is why you can’t adopt womanhood. We haven’t all had exactly the same experiences but the reason for our oppression is the same, and is not experienced by men.

Bookgrrrl · 03/05/2025 12:22

As feminists, we see the weaponisation of ‘women’s safety’ to vilify and exclude trans people as shameful.

This makes me SO angry. Why do so many people on that side of the debate believe that women’s fear and trauma isn’t valid, and the only reason people could possibly object to biological males being in women’s spaces is bigotry or exclusionism? The feelings and fears of the trans community are always front and centre to the argument, whilst the feelings and fears of women are trampled and dismissed. The worst part of it is that so often women are among those disregarding the very real fears of other women. I can only assume they have been fortunate enough never to find themselves truly in fear of a violent man.

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