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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Guilty Feminist on Triggernometry

216 replies

CornedBeef451 · 01/05/2025 09:46

I’m trying to listen to Deborah Frances White on Triggernometry but having to do it in very small increments for the sake of my blood pressure.

Konstantin is remaining incredibly calm, Deborah is losing her mind via passive aggression, and after only 15 mins I was shouting “but which ones have the babies Deborah?” at my phone.

Its worth a listen even if just for entertainment value. It’s quite long so I think it’ll take me a week to get through unless I start day drinking.

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NotMeekNotObedient · 01/05/2025 20:37

I actually went along with some friends to her recent book launch, against my better judgement actually. The best bit was when she described the people who use abortion services as 'women' and then had to correct herself!

She had a nice dig at JKR at the end 🙄

Can't stand her any more. Imo the podcast died a death once Sophie Hagen left.

GrandmaMazur · 01/05/2025 22:35

I was quite surprised when she talked about being part of a female comedians’ WhatsApp group where they shared details of dodgy male comedians. I wondered why she was included and only later found out she is actually a comedian. Is she funny? I can’t imagine it

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/05/2025 22:57

Perhaps she identifies as a comedian?

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/05/2025 23:03

Hours later and I am attempting to scare away the cringe by watching lots of Instagram videos by @horriblemeanbadwoman - who is the kind of Aussie feminist I can go for.

I'm not sure if @horriblemeanbadwoman is a comedian. but she is pretty funny along with her feminist analysis.

DogPawsMud · 01/05/2025 23:23

LonginesPrime · 01/05/2025 20:25

Is it only recently she’s embraced TWAW?

I seem to remember I tried to listen to her in about 2018 or 2019 and was put off by some nonsense - looking back, I guess it could have been some other nonsense, but I really thought it was because of gender woo and ‘just be kind’.

Happy to be corrected, though!

Yes it was quite some time ago that I was subjected to her speaker event so the timeline adds up - I’m guessing around 6-8 ish years ago. Apologies if my post was confusing.

LonginesPrime · 02/05/2025 00:15

DogPawsMud · 01/05/2025 23:23

Yes it was quite some time ago that I was subjected to her speaker event so the timeline adds up - I’m guessing around 6-8 ish years ago. Apologies if my post was confusing.

No worries at all; thanks for clarifying!

I’d hate to have missed out on years of insightful thought-leadership from DFW unnecessarily…

Solrock · 02/05/2025 08:03

GrandmaMazur · 01/05/2025 22:35

I was quite surprised when she talked about being part of a female comedians’ WhatsApp group where they shared details of dodgy male comedians. I wondered why she was included and only later found out she is actually a comedian. Is she funny? I can’t imagine it

About ten years ago Deborah Frances-White had her first show on Radio 4, Deborah Frances-White Rolls the Dice and it is genuinely very funny and quite poignant. You can listen to it here, if you want:

https://deborahfrances-white.com/writing/rolls-the-dice/

So, in answer to the question "Is she funny?" the answer is that she managed one very amusing radio series, which is more than most of us will achieve. But listening to it, her show suggests a few points:

  • As they say, everyone has one book in them. Deborah Frances-White Rolls the Dice was DFW's one book.
  • You realise that she has what we might euphemistically call some significant formative experiences, from being adopted, to ending up as a Jehovah's Witness. Some of her current politics are almost certainly influenced by these.
  • Whilst the show is funny, it does not give you the impression that she is a particularly deep thinker.

That last point is really hammered home by her appearance on Triggernometry. I had to stop listening after the appalling stupid claim that men only had short hair after they had to cut it off when fighting in the First World War. You can, for instance, go to the second floor of the National Portrait Gallery in London, and you will see what male hairstyles looked like before the war, and they certainly weren't long. Oscar Wilde, who is her example of a long-haired Victorian man, was always an outlier, and aesthete who was seen for his entire career as sitting outside normal societal norms, so a terrible example of what was accepted as normal during the nineteenth century.

I had to stop listening to the Triggernometry episode, for fear that the stupidity would prove to be contagious, but one point I noted from what I listened to was how DFW presents arguments which suggest that she sees things in aesthetic terms, and pushback to progressive policies as as aesthetic objection to the unfamiliar, hence her very strange bus-driver-in-a-clown-suit argument. And I feel that this is common approach for people who see themselves as progressive in the modern world. So, a writer in the Guardian, for instance, will suggest that the only meaningful difference between a Christian, a Muslim, and an atheist, is the aesthetics of how they practice their beliefs, rather than their belief systems representing, for instance, actual beliefs. Thus, being a woman becomes an aesthetic choice, rather than representing something with substantial and meaningful biological difference and potential oppression.

It's like the supposed liberals believe that everything only exists on the most superficial level (and I use the word "supposed" because they are not terribly liberal in any practical sense). Worthwhile to think about this whilst DFW meanders through absurd assertions about two-spirit people, or how many Victorian prisoners were orphans.

Rolls The Dice

Deborah's first Radio 4 series was transmitted 13 April - 4 May 2015. Episode One: Half a Can of Worms Episode Two: Cult Following Episode Three: Visa Issues Episode Four: Who's Your Daddy The second series was transmitted 7 - 14 October 2016. Epi...

https://deborahfrances-white.com/writing/rolls-the-dice/

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:22

HobnobsChoice · 01/05/2025 12:22

I've started listening to it and it's infuriating. The orphan analogy doesn't hold up the way she thinks it does. Adoption gives a child adoptive parents but it doesn't pretend the child has no biological parents. It's a legal process and when it comes to medical issues an adopted child needs to know because if they are asked about family history of heart attacks or glaucoma then they have to say they don't know, not say that their (adoptive) parents have heart disease and glaucoma as that parental relationship and love doesn't include shared genetics.
Adoption also doesn't require other children and parents to call themselves "cis-parents" or "cis-daughter" and mothers by adoption aren't asking to attend antenatal classes or be on labour and delivery wards.

That's literally my initial thoughts on her argument. I can't even deal with her attempts to ignore Chinese, Islamic, Russian and indigenous cultures which don't fit into her model of gender spectrum.

None her arguments seem to actual arguments. Talking about the status of orphan being socially constructed in no way relates to the sex of an actual body. I can’t decide if she is deluded or just stupid.

OP posts:
CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:26

Helleofabore · 01/05/2025 12:55

"But i think she wanted to show trig up as not being as smart as she is, not win them over. She wants them to be and think the opposite of her."

She came over as someone who is so scared of an argument outside her set parameters, and who is not really all that confident of their points. I thought maybe that she understood that she was trying to prop up points that have no scientific foundation, but then I realised when she started making references to other cultures that she has really just swallowed weak support and thinks that it is wonderfully robust.

I always find it weird when people use other cultures as an argument for changing sex.

Its so reductive and insulting to think any culture doesn’t know which people are likely to be the ones to give birth!

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CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:28

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 01/05/2025 14:10

I used to love the guilty feminist. It became more nuanced, intersectional, but I was quite disappointed by her book. I unsubscribed when they put out a statement on socials about not tolerating hate when they had the trans woman from Edinburgh refuge or whatever it was. So I can't bring myself to listen to this!

That’s the point I stopped listening too. Having a man on to talk about his work in a women’s refuge tipped me over the edge!

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CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:32

RobinEllacotStrike · 01/05/2025 15:48

I watched all 2 hours + of it today. <polishes medal>

I can't think of any salient point she made - there just weren't any. Many many many words, but no points of any interest or sense.

She's very keen on advocating for mens rights though - good on her. Is this why she is "guilty"?

The guilty part of her podcast was things like, “I’m a feminist but I don’t feel dressed unless I wear lipstick”.

Unfortunately she hasn’t figured out that the guiltiest feminist is actually a men’s rights activist.

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NotmeMother · 02/05/2025 08:33

It was a shocker! I think Kathleen Stock's word MORON fits perfectly with this one.

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:41

Congratulations to anyone who finished the whole thing!

I got half way through and had to give up, although after some comments here I’ll try the rest of it as I want to hear what she said about Konstantin’s experiences.

One thing I like about Triggernometry is that they sound like typical English white guys but then when someone, like Deborah, pulls the identifiers card they can point out Francis is half Venezuelan and English isn’t his first language, and Konstantin is Russian. I don’t agree with everything they say but they are useful sometimes.

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Lottapianos · 02/05/2025 09:17

'The guilty part of her podcast was things like, “I’m a feminist but I don’t feel dressed unless I wear lipstick”'

I listened to 2 episodes of her podcast a few years ago and just had to give up. It was so bad, so shallow and smug. It was like a parody of a 'feminist' podcast. Pathetic stuff. Give me Julie Bindel / Kathleen Stock/ Helen Joyce any day

SionnachRuadh · 02/05/2025 09:53

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:22

None her arguments seem to actual arguments. Talking about the status of orphan being socially constructed in no way relates to the sex of an actual body. I can’t decide if she is deluded or just stupid.

The thing about the status of orphan is, that's quite an easy thing to define.

What society does with orphans varies quite a lot according to time and place. I have these examples from my own family:

  • Children who were formally adopted
  • Children who were informally adopted, usually by extended family, before the formal adoption system was introduced
  • Children who were never adopted and grew up in care
  • Children who, thanks to the lack of children's services in 19th century Ireland, were put on a boat to Australia

None of that actually changes what an orphan is.

I don't want to assume DFW is being stupid, but I think she's really taking an aesthetic approach of saying this thing superficially resembles that thing and so they're basically the same, and this justifies her position on some other thing.

It's a demonstration of Scott Adams' argument that we think we arrive at our positions rationally, but more often we just adopt them viscerally and rationalise them afterwards based on confirmation bias and magical thinking.

sandgreen · 02/05/2025 10:23

I didn’t intend to listen to the whole thing, but was stunned into submission. By the end of it she still believes she will convert listeners who prefer her PASSION and FEELINGS over KK’s nasty right wing insistence on facts, and her fans will enjoy the conversation too.

It was one of the strangest interviews I’ve ever heard.

JamieCannister · 02/05/2025 10:41

I watched the whole 2 1/2 hours. I thought she made some decent-ish points, but NOTHING worth a listen, let alone going out of your way for. But mainly she said nothing full stop, only in a very word salad way.

She never made any sort of argument, it was more a question of making points, good and bad, and expecting the listener to pull them together, build an argument out of them and convince themselves that the woke are right and men can be women off the back of it. Not going to happen.

From reading the youtube comments and two threads on here I get the impression that my take is incredibly charitable, and she should be thanking me for being one of her biggest cheerleaders.

MyLostUsername · 02/05/2025 10:47

SionnachRuadh · 02/05/2025 09:53

The thing about the status of orphan is, that's quite an easy thing to define.

What society does with orphans varies quite a lot according to time and place. I have these examples from my own family:

  • Children who were formally adopted
  • Children who were informally adopted, usually by extended family, before the formal adoption system was introduced
  • Children who were never adopted and grew up in care
  • Children who, thanks to the lack of children's services in 19th century Ireland, were put on a boat to Australia

None of that actually changes what an orphan is.

I don't want to assume DFW is being stupid, but I think she's really taking an aesthetic approach of saying this thing superficially resembles that thing and so they're basically the same, and this justifies her position on some other thing.

It's a demonstration of Scott Adams' argument that we think we arrive at our positions rationally, but more often we just adopt them viscerally and rationalise them afterwards based on confirmation bias and magical thinking.

Yes, this. I have no idea what she thought she was claiming by saying that orphans were/are regarded and treated differently and the eimpact on her identity?

Same with the 'analogy' of women wearing trousers and men having long hair, or even worse, the clown bus driver, when she claimed that 'given enough time, we would not notice anymore'. She seems very confused about gender non-conformity and gender identity. Or does she really think that in a few generations humans will not be able to tell the sex of any other human? If that was teh case we'd be fucked as a species.

JamieCannister · 02/05/2025 10:57

sandgreen · 02/05/2025 10:23

I didn’t intend to listen to the whole thing, but was stunned into submission. By the end of it she still believes she will convert listeners who prefer her PASSION and FEELINGS over KK’s nasty right wing insistence on facts, and her fans will enjoy the conversation too.

It was one of the strangest interviews I’ve ever heard.

If we want to get right down to it, there is one thing that she spectacularly fails to get.

"Ordinary men and women" in the UK are interest in a decent job and a decent home, and hope for their kids. They might also want their country to feel more like it used to before mass immigration that they did not vote for, and politicians on all sides lied to them about. They do not want their 7 year old told lies like "everyone has a gender identity" and "humans can change sex". They either don't want men in dresses in women's spaces, or they don't give a fig about a tiny minority of weirdos (their feelings, not mine). They want someone to come along and explain how growth is going to be delivered, where the homes are coming from, and to stop banging on about minorities, not least from woke white MC people with no black friends (whilst they themselves have a black best mate who also thinks there's too much immigration).

She simply cannot accept that maybe the trigger guys understand their audience more than she does. Her position seems to be "there is a big divide between the woke left and the right, and if only more on the left can be big enough to speak to fascists and patiently explain why they are bigoted morons for refusing to buy into identity politics, then everyone will agree with me and we can win".

I would, genuinely, love to see her watch the whole thing back, and reflect long and hard. And then invite them on her podcast and ask them about they feelings and beliefs based on their lived experience. I'm surprised she didn't exmpode as she started to get her head around the idea that Francis and KK are not two goose-stepping english white nationalists, and that maybe their viewpoints are infinitely more inclusive of the variety of global views than hers are. And are more progressive and liberal

dubaichocolate · 02/05/2025 11:12

It’s interesting that she’s not promoting this podcast on her social media. The one with David Tennant is getting plenty of promo. Why could that be?

MoistVonL · 02/05/2025 11:16

CrazyOldMe · 01/05/2025 13:09

TBF, Deborah isn’t stupid. She wouldn’t be where she is if she was.

Therefore, she’s either:

  1. Being paid to promote the ideology (common for influencers)
  2. Too scared to speak out/ doesn’t want to be cancelled

Or 3. She genuinely holds a different opinion

I think it’s all anti-intellectual bollocks and doesn’t hold up to scrutiny but a remarkable number of bright people do actually accept it.

It’s not a good idea to write of all opponents as thick or pretending.

MoistVonL · 02/05/2025 11:23

CornedBeef451 · 02/05/2025 08:32

The guilty part of her podcast was things like, “I’m a feminist but I don’t feel dressed unless I wear lipstick”.

Unfortunately she hasn’t figured out that the guiltiest feminist is actually a men’s rights activist.

It was fun when it first started.

My “guilty feminist” trait is while I reject the beauty industry and pressure on women to remain young and attractive to men, I love nothing more than red carpet photos. I literally take time off the day after the Oscars and Met Gala to spending hours gawping at the beautiful people in their outlandish outfits.
Love it.
Am embarrassed by it.

When it was young women who want to be good feminists but would sell their souls for a Mulberry bag, it was light and funny.
Then it got all tedious and bandwagon-y.

newrubylane · 02/05/2025 11:32

Haven't watched/listened to the podcast. But the adoption analogy is just stupid. Being a parent is about your relationship to/with another person. Yes as a society we have accepted that there are different ways that relationship can be created. But it is not some inner feelings of identity. It would still be absurd for someone who didn't have a child to identify as a parent and try to use it to get legal rights such as maternity leave or claim a school place for their invisible child.

OverpricedCupcake · 02/05/2025 11:36

As a woman who was adopted at birth, she's talking absolute shite.

Merrymouse · 02/05/2025 11:42

Please could somebody play devil's advocate and try to explain the bus driver/clown argument.

Thank you.

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