Pulled up at work for ‘trans views’

[wherearethemarsbars]

Recently, a colleague at my company has declared that they are ‘agender’ and asexual and has asked to be addressed as ‘they’. As a result, my company decided to arrange a trans training session where some trans people came in to talk to us all about gender and terminology etc etc.

During this session, I was asked to describe my experience of living as a ‘cis woman’. I said that I didn’t have any experience of living as a cis woman, only as a woman so I couldn’t comment. I was pressed further and didn’t say much, only that the term ‘cis woman’ doesn’t align with my personal beliefs of what a woman is, so therefore declined to comment any further.

A few days later, I was pulled up on this by management who said that my behaviour was not acceptable and that I should be making an effort to be inclusive to everyone. I’m a bit baffled. Can I get others’ thoughts on this topic?

Might seem odd, but as long as you aren't unlawfully discriminating against anyone it's fine.

That was part of why the SC ruled as it did. It is a massive word salad and makes zero sense. You can’t find a way to make it sense.

Ultimately that is a just a group for anyone (except if you are male same sex attracted- they might get upset to not be included!)

Are you asking for the male version? That would be 'cis man'.
Or are you asking about transwomen?

So in this neo-religion, a 'woman is anyone who identifies as a woman' (a terrible, circular definition which defies reality and sense). This means that a female woman (a female adult human who identifies as a woman) is a 'cis woman'. A male woman (a male adult human who identifies as a woman) is a 'transwoman', but of course, it is terrible herecy for me to use 'male' when explaining this and to not have the gap in 'transwoman'.

I haven't read the whole thread, but if I were you I would point out to your employer that the courts have ruled that your gender critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act, and you find it offensive to be referred to as a cis woman.

I frequently think a lot of the transphobia on MN is ridiculous. Trans women are not men. But like OP, I would draw the line at being made to declare my own gender identity. If I want to be precious about it, I don't identify as the kind of body I inhabit, or enjoy the assumptions that are made on the basis of the appearance of my female body, and I certainly wouldn't want someone else to declare it as my identity on my behalf. No, I don't require a special label to clarify this. My given name is fine.

You were perfectly reasonable and did nothing wrong, didnt offend anyone. Its one thing to push people to refer to other people as "them" but what you describe you were pulled up for sounds ridiculous.

This. It’s as though the OP had been asked their religion in this “training” & is now being chastised as a heretic because she declared that she is an atheist.

Bollocks to that. Setting a good example doesn't mean changing who you are. Can you imagine a religion awareness session where you were asked to give your experience as a sinner/ non- believer/ infidel! Respecting other people doesn't mean lying about your beliefs or pretending to buy into theirs.

They have seriously overstepped here. Asking for their concerns in writing is an excellent idea

True, they may as well have asked you if you were Sunni or Shia.

I’m sorry but there lies the problem.

Trans women are biological men.

That is exactly the clarification of the Equality Act that came from the SC. When people start to still say trans women are not men, you are fudging the legal reality and then we get into people being very confused.

it doesn’t mean trans women don’t exist. It just means they are a subset of men not women and as such although they can present as a women, they don’t lose their biological sex

Could I tweak that?

There are women
and there are men.

there is technically no such thing as a transwoman - simply a man pushing the gender boundaries of being a man in that culture

you can’t be trans as it is scientifically impossible to transition…

they can’t be women as they are men.

so: woman / man

@TheodoraCrumpet Please explain your logic and how you have concluded the following: 'Trans women are not men'.

Haven't read whole thread, but in your shoes I would contact Free Speech Union for advice before doing anything. Training sessions have been an absolute minefield in this regard. They will be interested and should offer some free advice. (You can DM me if you want, as I have a bit of a history in regard to this sort of thing.)

If transwomen are not men then why do they call themselves “transwomen”. If they are women they could just call themselves women, but somehow they need to keep that little reminder that they were once men, with the entitlement and superiority that brings with it, and when they decided they wanted to become women it was on the understanding that they will henceforth be seen as just a tad superior to women who have unfortunately always been women, because transwomen come with the kudos of having once been men.

I agree with others that a written response is what's needed. In it, I would frame the interaction at the training as:

"I have been inclusive to my colleagues and have made every effort not to offend, including through misgendering. However at the training I myself was misgendered, and then later admonished by management when I calmly and courteously corrected the trainer. I do not identify as a "Cis woman". I have seen the term "Cis" defined as referring to a person whose gender identity is aligned with their biological sex, or who is comfortable with the cultural and social expectations attached to their sex. This is not the case for me, because I do not experience the phenomenon of feeling a gender identity, and because I believe that many gemdered social and cultural expectations are rooted in sexist sterotypes and are therefore harmful and to be rejected. For me, my identity as a woman is rooted in my biological sex and I do not claim a gender. My colleague, who also does not feel they have a gender, identifies as "agender", and I respect that. For me, my identity as a woman is rooted in biology so I wouldn't want to be called "agender", a term that suggests I don't consider myself a woman. I am a woman, but I don't consider myself "Cis". I believe that this, my lived experience and genuine sense of self, is as worthy of respect as any of my colleagues' identities. I did not appreciate having my identity assumed at the training, being put on the spot to declare and justify that identity without having volunteered to do so, and then being reprimanded for being honest about my own experience of my personal identity."

What makes a trans woman a woman though? Can you explain please

Transphobia means a phobia (fear) of trans.
There is no such thing as trans as scientifically no-one can transition sex nor can they legally.
There is no fear- just a clarification of science / language / reality.
so transphobia can’t / doesn’t exist.

and Transwomen are men - that is 100% what they are biologically / scientifically / legally as just confirmed by the Supreme Court.

A transwoman is a man who identifies with women and would like to live that life - but is still a man - once born a man or woman that is what you remain for ever - it’s not possible to change that biologically or legally.

They broke the law. Are you wanting to point this out to them, or do you want to leave it?

The Forester case settled the matter; your gender critical beliefs (and the believe that “cis” doesn’t exist) is a protected characteristic. By reprimanding, they discriminated against your legally protected beliefs. You should put that into an email to the people who held the meeting plus HR. The recent Supreme Court ruling also clears it up, that a woman is a biological female. The word “cis” doesn’t come into it. Again, this is a legally protected belief and it is discrimination to demand you change your ways or bully you for it or reprimand you for it. I think you need to send that email, but you may not want to.

I would've answered the question as best I could, but struggled to, while stating at the same time I don't use or agree with the word 'cis'.

The question is weird anyway, 'my experience of living as a woman'? Erm, well blood comes out of my vagina for about 12 weeks a year, I've been raped by men using their penis, sometimes I wear a skirt...?'

I guess you just have to avoid getting I to conversations about such things in the workplace. Realistically it's unlikely to come up. Presumably you are just supposed to call that one person 'they/them'. If you don't want to then just refer to them by name.

Say what you want, but according to the laws of both genetics and the supreme court, trans women are certainly not women.

I don't think the OP needs to explain their beliefs.

It's just the law that the OP's beliefs are protected - particularly in a large organisation like the NHS (If that is the OP's employer), that should be enough.

This is good but add a paragraph about how they broke the law.
The Forester case settled the matter; your gender critical beliefs (and the believe that “cis” doesn’t exist) is a protected characteristic. By reprimanding, they discriminated against your legally protected beliefs. You should put that into an email to the people who held the meeting plus HR. The recent Supreme Court ruling also clears it up, that a woman is a biological female. The word “cis” doesn’t come into it. Again, this is a legally protected belief and it is discrimination to demand you change your ways or bully you for it or reprimand you for it.

I believe in gender in the same way that I believe in any other social construct. However I don’t have a gender identity. I have found social and societal interactions to have been based on my biological sex regardless of whether or not I feel feminine.

Ironically the only time that I have been chastised for not adopting the signifiers of femininity has been by transwomen who look ‘too male’ if they don’t. Because they don’t understand the lived experience of girls and women, which includes misogyny, they think I have it easy.

Inclusivity works two ways and right now it is not. Not everyone feels the need, or is comfortable, to enforce or advertise their gender in other peoples faces.

Referring to women as cis is, as far as I am concerned, gender misappropriation and I take offence at that.

Trans women are not men.

Man = adult human male. What happens when a man says 'I identify as a woman' that stops them being an adult human male?