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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The patience of saints ECHR compliant Policy Writing thread for Civil Servants, Third Sector and HR people.

38 replies

woollyhatter · 01/05/2025 08:33

Interesting to see that some of the more strident activist groups that have led the government and many other services up, what might politely be described the garden path, are being sidelined for the rewrite.

Since Mumsnetters are doing a rather marvellous job of the NHS audit of their existing trans policies for them how about we outline some of matters they will now have to attend to urgently?

Rather than having a seat at the table at the Scottish government‘s senior civil servant tea party, as reported in The Times, could we be like mother pouring the tea and generally pushing things along in a direction that is rather more sane than the last decade?

There is a lot of energy, intelligent and sensible advice here on this forum, but it’s difficult to get the threads out especially when we have the distraction and derails of drive-by scoldings. We can leave that to other threads. No doubt they will continue to be as lively as ever.

But this may be the place to speak truth to power in a constructive manner so we can start rebuilding from the mess that has been made by Stonewall, Scottish trans, Engender et al.

Sadly, it is not as though we can go back to version 1.9 pre 2014 since the shiny, brave and stunning 2.0 versions of trans rights uber alles policy

The social contract has been broken in some ways and we are now forced to emphasise the obvious that rights have to be properly balanced, and safeguarding is paramount and that affects all protected characteristics. The basic premise is that now no protected characteristic should impinge on the rights of another group with a protected characteristic.

So to kick off I am setting out a stall Equality Act compliance principles that should inform any new policies.

Principle 1

Any revised policy under the Equality Act should involve a written audit that has considered the rights of each of the nine groups with protected characteristics, outlining the advantages, detriments and neutrality of a proposed policy.

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 01/05/2025 12:50

Superb idea for a thread.

I'm not writing policies and will leave it to those in the know, but will be delighted to keep this thread bumped.

PerkingFaintly · 01/05/2025 20:28

Little bump.

DuchessofReality · 01/05/2025 21:27

Before signing up to any 3rd party awards system, which awards points for specific policies, consider whether this is likely to lead to favouring one group of employees over another.

PerkingFaintly · 09/05/2025 12:44

bump

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 09/05/2025 13:01

Polls, surveys, votes etc involving stakeholders must involve all stakeholders, be anonymous, and supported with detailed explanation of terms.

loveyouradvice · 09/05/2025 14:04

@woollyhatter - brilliant idea for a thread. 100% endorse your first principle - it seems so obvious and I still do not understand why so many cannot see this.... while accepting it needs strong women like us to look at this.

I'm going to send your first principle to someone senior who is grappling with this in a specific situation at the moment....

loveyouradvice · 09/05/2025 14:11

Have you had further thoughts @woollyhatter ? I too am not a policy writer but can recognise and applaud sensible suggestions...

Good thinking @theilltemperedqueenofspacetime 100% important to hear from all, rather than selected groups, and to recognise when feedback is dominated by a group focussed on one of the protected characteristics and lacking from others, and seek to remedy this. I am so aware that there are certain groups of women who often self-exclude and are invisible such as religious groups and those who have suffered abuse

and @DuchessofReality -totally agree and think this is a good extension of the first principle

CarefulN0w · 09/05/2025 14:16

Most public sector policies already go through something laughingly referred to as an equality impact assessment. To make sure that the sacred caste people with protected characteristics are not discriminated against by policies, or that suitable mitigation is put in place.

What would be awesome would be if equality impact assessments did the job they are intended to.

SionnachRuadh · 09/05/2025 14:47

The way an equality impact assessment is supposed to work is to bring to your notice whether you might be indirectly discriminating against people with a protected characteristic or even a subset of a PC, eg your disability policy is great for wheelchair users but doesn't work at all for the visually impaired.

That's when an organisation should say, "Of course, we didn't think of that, let's amend our proposal accordingly."

In practice, in some bits of the public sector (not wanting to name any names like the Welsh Government) an EIA sometimes seems to mean "We asked Stonewall and they said it was ok."

CatietteX · 09/05/2025 18:53

It may not be the right place, but it would mean such a lot to me - to so many women - if anyone reading this could appreciate how profoundly distressing it is for us to see so many proudly one-sided official responses to the judgement.

These are actually frightening in their implicit - and overt - dismissal of women’s legal rights. It’s been less than 100 years since we won the right to be recognised as a distinct political demographic with unique needs and the right to advocate for these needs, in the vote. And yet now, once again, our calls to be recognised as such are condemned, denied and dismissed as absurd. It was only 25 years ago that women could be subjected to rape by their husbands by law, an abuse possible only because of the immense physical differences between the sexes - and yet, now, we’re being told that our biological reality doesn’t exist, or doesn’t justify our caution.

This judgement has determined that women’s rights have, once again, been denied on the basis of our sex: the case was about the definition of a woman, after all. It was needed to yet again assert the rights we’d thought we’d one: to be recognised as distinct from the males who voted on our behalf and appropriated our very bodies. In this context, it is simply not appropriate to respond to the judgement with emphatic statements of regret that this discrimination cannot continue. It has already persisted for far too long - and our ongoing fight against it relies on at least acknowledging its existence.

In this context, to try to explore my feelings and what I think would be a more fair - “inclusive” even! - response, I made my own attempt at writing a more balanced statement (first posted on another thread). I freely acknowledge that my own bias in favour of women’s sex-based rights shows through, but what I think is key here is that 1) I at least acknowledge that another group is affected and has differing views & 2) I try to do so in a respectful way. This attempt at balance and empathy should be the absolute least we can expect as women. I’d hope for more, but would settle for this. The alternative that I’m seeing, in which we simply do not feature, appalls me.

If I can write something more nuanced myself just as an intellectual exercise, those employed to do so most certainly can.

Please, do so.

CatietteX · 09/05/2025 18:58

Adapted from the statement made by a group of academics at the University of York. And so easy to do in place of any of the so utterly unashamedly one-sided statements out there:

“This judgment, which states that ‘sex’ for the purposes of the Act refers to the ‘sex of a person at birth’, was handed down after a case in which women’s interests were represented by a grassroots group supporting sex-based rights, and trans women’s interests by the Scottish government and Amnesty International. National trans advocacy organisations were also offered the opportunity to contribute on behalf of individual trans people, in line with standard Supreme Court process.

We believe the judgement provides clarity on the meaning of sex in law, thereby mitigating ongoing misogynistic opportunism and harm to trans people in a fraught area. For example, we are reassured by responses by the Equality and Human Rights Commission and organisations such as the British Transport Police, as the judgement has placed much-needed pressure on these organisations to uphold the law by providing female-only facilities and services. Such responses will protect women’s safety, privacy and dignity, by enabling the full participation in society of vulnerable females including victims of male violence and members of religious minorities. However, the judgement also highlights trans people’s status and needs.

It is important to note the Supreme Court emphasises the ongoing protection of trans people from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment, and asserts the importance of their access to appropriate facilities, too. However, it appears that long-term misrepresentation the law by multiple public institutions which have encouraged trans women to use female-only facilities and services has led to lost opportunities to promote and fund provision for these people. We are keen to support such organisations now as they redirect their efforts towards this.

As such, we recognise the complexity of balancing of the of rights of women and trans women. This is especially the case in relation to the inclusion of trans women in women’s spaces. Female members of our society clearly require specific accommodations for their lived biological experiences, including but not limited to: menstruation, pregnancy, miscarriage, and menopause, and their statistically proven vulnerability to violence perpetrated by males including both “cis-“ men and “trans women”. As feminists, we see the weaponisation of women’s desire for these accommodations to vilify them as TERFS, bigots or fascists and silence their voices, as utterly shameful.

However, in addition to the importance of recognizing the female experience, we also recognize that womanhood may be seen as a complex, gendered construct which is, in contrast, not biologically given or legally bestowed, and is, rather, lived by a wider range of individuals, including both women and trans women. From this perspective, the rights of trans women and women may be seen to overlap.

As academic experts on sex and gender, we further acknowledge the existence of Differences of Sexual Development (so-called “intersex” individuals) and are concerned by the weaponization of such conditions to support arguments that biological sex is not ‘self-explanatory.’ It Is self-evident that every single human to existence is the product of a male and a female reproductive system, making biological sex one of the few true binaries in nature. However, it is also self-evident that there are natural variations and outliers within this which must be accommodated. We feel that this should be on the basis of these groups’ own unique needs.

We view this judgment and the damaging responses to it such as threats of violence levelled at feminists as part of a broader trend of backsliding on women’s equality, which is also harming marginalised groups and gender nonconforming people. Discrimination does not exist in isolation, and the stripping away of women’s legal protections (now re-established in law) has threatened us all. The reality of sex has been subsumed into and confused with a gendered construct of “lived womanhood”, leading to the loss of previously well-functioning single-sex facilities, services and associated social contracts, including the quiet accommodation of transwomen in female-only spaces. The assertion of this undefinable quality of “womanhood” has resulted in intensified regulation of the borders of gender expression, while denying a simple truth: that women require specific accommodations acknowledging their bodily reality, beyond which they are wholly autonomous individuals unlimited by reductive “gender identities”.

Our support for women’s rights, LGB rights, and trans rights, including safe and inclusive healthcare and sanitary facilities for all, is steadfast. As such, we are delighted by the Supreme Court’s confirmation that the 51% of the population known as “women” retain their legal rights and words; that trans men retain vital access to maternity protections; and that lesbian same-sex attraction, recently homophobically described as a form of “racism”, is recognised as real and also legally protected. We also recognize the challenges the judgment presents to trans women in particular, and are keen to do everything we can within UK law to protect this group, starting by adding our voices to calls for third spaces (alongside the male toilets a proportion already use, accessible toilets and evolving gender-neutral provision) to accommodate them fully alongside women.”

Gagagardener · 09/05/2025 20:09

I am not a policy writer. However, I feel that if this policy writing is undertaken there should be reference to and consideration of data. This is to get rid of the confusion around sex and gender that is exacerbated by changing sex markers on official documents.

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 21:35

DuchessofReality · 01/05/2025 21:27

Before signing up to any 3rd party awards system, which awards points for specific policies, consider whether this is likely to lead to favouring one group of employees over another.

I’d say slightly different - no awards schemes or political affiliations of any kind

Gagagardener · 09/05/2025 22:45

Bump.

thenoisiesttermagant · 09/05/2025 23:12

Any public sector body should not just assume that any group that purports to represent a particular demographic actually does represent that demographic and job done on consultation and research without the need to get wider grassroots opinion / evidence / facts. Before they listen to any group they need to scrutinise that group's motivations and aims.

So Stonewall does not represent many LGB these days (particularly lesbians) and there are many so-called 'Feminist' groups that don't represent a large number of women / most average women.

It's been lazy for organisations to just accept Stonewall's word, and illegal. They must learn from this.

KnottyAuty · 09/05/2025 23:22

thenoisiesttermagant · 09/05/2025 23:12

Any public sector body should not just assume that any group that purports to represent a particular demographic actually does represent that demographic and job done on consultation and research without the need to get wider grassroots opinion / evidence / facts. Before they listen to any group they need to scrutinise that group's motivations and aims.

So Stonewall does not represent many LGB these days (particularly lesbians) and there are many so-called 'Feminist' groups that don't represent a large number of women / most average women.

It's been lazy for organisations to just accept Stonewall's word, and illegal. They must learn from this.

What’s emerging tho is that they didn’t just accept it - they’ve swallowed it whole and seem proud to embody a celebration of trans-ness. And an enthusiasm for stazi style thought policing. I just can’t get my head around it - so I find it really scary. I’ve lived my whole life in a society which was becoming more liberal over time. I read about stuff like the Salem Witch Trials or 1930s Germany and thought that sort of stuff didnt apply to the modern age. But it seems like human nature doesn’t change… and the internet seems to act like an accelerant. This is group think on a monumental scale…

woollyhatter · 10/05/2025 08:07

More thoughts on principles:

As in all aspects of legislation and statutory guidance the terms “must”, “should”and “may” are not interchangeable. The careful observation of the legislation as drafted and as tested in the courts ensure that unintended harms to other protected characteristics other than one of particular focus are avoided.

Where a body may consider implementing “best practice” it is important to record the decision making process for changes. Central to any decision-making, it must have evidence-based and statistically robust data that has been verified and from credible sources.

OP posts:
woollyhatter · 10/05/2025 08:07

More thoughts on principles:

As in all aspects of legislation and statutory guidance the terms “must”, “should”and “may” are not interchangeable. The careful observation of the legislation as drafted and as tested in the courts ensure that unintended harms to other protected characteristics other than one of particular focus are avoided.

Where a body may consider implementing “best practice” it is important to record the decision making process for changes. Central to any decision-making, it must have evidence-based and statistically robust data that has been verified and from credible sources.

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/05/2025 08:24

@CatietteX - It's not strictly a policy but it's worth bearing in mind that one-sided statements could contribute to a hostile environment and be used against the organisation in a discrimination case.

And here's a model response (for NHS) which @redtoothbrush re-wrote from the offensively unbalanced real response:

They should be saying "We understand that the ruling has caused distress to some and is an acknowledgement that the rights of others have not always been upheld as they should have within the law. We stress the law has not changed; we remain committed to equality for all and will work with all parties to uphold equality of all staff. If you have any concerns or feel this has affected you in anyway please speak to HR. All concerns will be dealt with discreetly. We understand that this affects a large number of people in different ways. The trust understands that the privacy and dignity of all staff and patients remains paramount. Going forward our focus is on providing high quality standards of care for patients and ensuring all staff feel safe in their work environment. We expect all staff to remain professional and to treat others with respect and be sensitive to all surrounding this subject. We will issue updated guidance as soon as possible".

I made a note because it was well balanced and respectful all round and could be adapted for use by employers, universities etc. if they need to make a statement.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5317262-what-my-nhs-trust-have-said-about-the-supreme-court-verdict?reply=143628525

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 10/05/2025 08:31

I guess the policy point should be that when issuing statements to the public or staff or clients etc, you should consider its effects on people with all the different protected characteristics. Not just the group you're aiming at.

There's a reason why large organisation usually issue bland statements.

CarefulN0w · 10/05/2025 08:46

Having been involved in service and policy development in the NHS in the past, another point that I would add is that it can be challenging to do meaningful public consultation and engage service users. The pool of people available to attend meetings mostly excludes those with full time jobs and so it is not uncommon for consultation to be conducted with connected charities and voluntary groups plus willing retirees. To be clear, this isn’t always a bad thing and I have personally worked with some brilliant dedicated people and organisations who have rightly challenged NHS thinking and identified flaws in our plans. However, excluding working people can lead to skewed decisions and make it easier for lobby groups like Stonewall to get a seat at the table. The public body needs to tick the public consultation box and SW have been available and only too willing to “help”.

So I think I would want to see something that improves public consultation. A minimum period of online availability would be a starting point, plus some sort of system of alerts so that the public know about them. This would be weighted towards the views of people who live in the areas affected and not national organisations.

And I don’t know how it would work in practice, but the relevant body would need to meaningfully consider the views raised in any public consultation - not ignore them.

parietal · 10/05/2025 09:11

With regard to public consultations, surely the public of Lancashire don’t have a wildly different opinion to the public of Cardiff. So for many of these issues, one national consultation would get a clear set of answers and be much more efficient than 200 local consultations with 5 people, 3 of whom come from a lobby group.

CarefulN0w · 10/05/2025 09:34

I was thinking more about local issues I suppose. So for example where the NHS wants to stop providing services in a particular location and move them somewhere else. There may be transport & parking issues that affect people with disabilities for example. If a hospital wants to change anything about gynae or maternity services, it is the voices of local women that need to be amplified, not a lobby group whose primary aim is to police people’s language.

MarzipanAndFrenchFancies · 10/05/2025 10:12

A really simple thing. Policies should list protected characteristics exactly as they appear in the equalities act.

Following this, they should describe discrimination against these same characteristics.

I have seen organisations add in extra descriptors to explain discriminatory practices. IE By saying we will not discriminate against you because of your sex, age, gender reassignment, etc etc and then add random but well meaning things such as caring responsibilities.

Organisations shouldn't change the wording if the protected characteristics. IE the policy below replaces sex with gender and then starts talking about non binary people.

www.inspirationtrust.org/1430/equality-diversity-and-inclusion-statement

In other words equalities policies should stick to the law.

loveyouradvice · 11/05/2025 10:39

Im finding this thread fascinating - so agree - thank you

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