Allow Male Workers to perform mammograms and breast screening

[CrakdEgg]

OK, so the Society & College of Radiographers have their annual delegates conference, where members bring forward motions for the union to lobby on.
In the past they have passed motions to 'remove gendered language' from health communications for inclusivity - you know, 'pregnant people' and the like. They then lobby behind the scenes to the Government to follow these requests.

This year we have this motion -

Allow Male Workers to Perform Mammograms

Workforce shortages: there are 15 posts for mammographers on NHS jobs. In the UK.

But are we bothered? Do we not want males in this space, or does it not matter because we have male gynaecologists? Or will it dissuade women from attending?

I am interested to hear other people's opinions. My instincts say 'no way Jose', but I am interested in keeping males out of female spaces, so I accept my bias.

Thoughts?

I'm waiting on an urgent mammogram due to a few symptoms causing suspected breast cancer and at this point I do not care if its a man, woman or a flying pig if they have the qualifications and can potentially save a life then I say go for it.
To refuse a mammogram because the person doing their job that they are qualified to do is complete bat sh*t crazy in my opinion, surgeons see you naked during most operations, male doctors deliver babies why can't a man perform a mammogram

weeanniee I am sorry you are going through that. I hope the test comes back clear. But other women do not have the same views as you, perhaps driven by prior experiences of sexual abuse, perhaps due to feeling very private, or for religious reasons. You don’t get to make decisions for them. It is also very different to expose yourself to a procedure when you are at high risk, to doing so when you are at low risk for the purposes of screening.

The problem with the NHS is the NHS.

Its the culture of the NHS.

If you said that males could perform Mammograms, this wouldn't be made clear and it would be made as difficult as possible for women to avoid this if they wanted an alternative through bog standard beaucracy.

You
a) would not be asked upfront if you minded a male
b) you would be told if there was a choice that male practioners were quicker to be seen to pressure you to make a different decision.
c) you would turn up to an appointment, and always risk 'a last minute' change of staff so be put in a position where you felt it harder to say no
d) would be told that if you don't go for a test now, it might affect your risk profile (you've had too long between screening / you need a test and you are responsible for the delay by not choosing a man).
e) youd be made to feel difficult by opting to see a woman.
f) the system for ensuring you saw a woman wouldn't be the default - it would be a more convoluted and difficult process which instantly would disadvantage women with limited english, thus meaning the system as a whole indirectly discriminated against them and made them less likely to participate in screening (and these are the targets for increasing uptake).
g) on the whole it would anger trust with your borderline engagers. Anyone willing to go and see a male, is your Engager Who Will Engage No Matter What. In policy making in this area, you ignore them because they are ultimately a done deal. Its your very soft Might Engage If Feel Safe And Really Have A Sufficient Level Of Trust that are ultimately your 'target market here'.

This is why you pander to this last group and yes the former don't bloody matter in practical terms, because your priority is increasing engagement levels with the soft groups.

This is why reference to other systems are totally pointless and irrevelant. Because it comes back to Trust In The NHS being the core and central feature of disengagment. Not idealistic notions about how other countries do it. Its meaningless and has no bearing on the lives of people deciding whether to trust the NHS or not.

The women who have mammogram for suspected cancer want the test to be as accurate and timely as possible.

Most women having a mammogram don't think they have cancer, they arent panicked about getting a diagnosis quickly, they want the procedure to be completed as efficient and dignified as possible.

The screening services want as many women to be screened as possible, as accurately as possible.

None of these factors need men to perform the mammogram.

In fact, theres a good chance women wont attend the mammogram if a man is going to perform it.

Therefore, to get timely diagnosis, or dignified experiences or get as woman women through the door, as cost effectively as possible, it makes no sense to allow male staff, because its going to add time, admin costs and stress to the whole process.

This thread has made me think. Are the NHS plotting stuff we don't yet know about, is Wes Streeting making more decisions?
AND...we have the SC ruling, and now men can do mammograms. When smear uptake went down through the floor, a big part of the "encouragement" to "accept" your "invitations" to smears was you could always ask for a female. Does anyone think they could be planning to backtrack on this? More men will do smears?

NHS England is getting canned. It's being put under direct DoH control.

Male chests are normally considered a less intimate, private area than female breasts .
So I don’t think the two situations are comparable..
Also - men don’t normally have a large amount of breast tissue that needs to be squeezed and manhandled into the machine

I wonder if mammograms can be performed on males - their breast tissue is so small. I wonder if they go directly for an MRI?

Women who feel that a strange male manhandling their breasts during a mammogram will add to their embarrassment, stress and fear of the procedure are not “bat-shit crazy”. That’s how they feel and if this thread is any indication there are many of us who feel like that.

We do mammograms on men but generally only if we’re pretty sure it’s a cancer. So normally ultrasound first.

Just catching up with this thread.
This is excellent.
Thanks for sharing

I think being seen as soon as possible if that's by a man so be it, I'd rather know sooner if I had cancer. I think men and women can fill all jobs in all areas of the medical field, with the individual able to choose whether they're seen by a person of the opposite sex.

I hadn't noticed that my mammograms had been done by women only previously. My gynocolocist is man he's seen more than just my tits which anyone can gawp at if they're so inclined on the beach. The more mammograms available the better I think this is a great move

Availability of mammograms is not the issue - there are sufficient available for those who need them. The issue is persuading women to take up screening and this is going to put many women off. The fact it doesn’t put you off is neither here nor there.

Well, we are talking about the NHS here, so regardless of which jurisdiction you are wokescolding us from, in the UK, you get the HCP you are given, with the notable exception until about five minutes ago that you could ask for a HCP of a particular sex and they would try their best to honour that request.

Most of the time, this system works.

(as realistically the NHS is not sustainable unless you invade another country with oil fields)

We have oil fields. We don't have a Govt with the smarts to invest the proceeds into a Sovereign Wealth Fund the way that the Norwegians do, and that's a large part of why the country is skint. Overseas residents owning property and taking the rental income overseas is another reason why the country is skint.

And yet I've ignored my cervical screening recall because I cannot face the possibility of a man putting that speculum into me and it's not been possible in recent years to meaningfully ask for a female HCP for that. PTSD and vaginismus are known sequela of rape and sexual assault. What made the smear possible for me was a guaranteed female nurse. It's now not possible for me. The knowledge that refusing this test might kill me doesn't make the PTSD and vaginismus go away so the speculum can actually be inserted.

Translation: "I don't need this female-only service so you don't either, and I will consent on your behalf to removing this service from you, even though you have said you still need it."

Sorry, you feel that why and been through sexual violence and it absolutely should be a right to choose would you seen by and you should be listened to.

Excellent article by Janice Turner
https://www.thetimes.com/article/dcd076ff-89ca-47ed-98a1-2f862f1d9a3d?shareToken=bd018e8649402c51287426bd87f9d7d2

I disagree about being given the option to choose a woman. Requiring women to be the ones to makes a choice not to accept whatever the default is putting a load on a woman who has no power in that situation. It requires her to be able to understand she must make and choice and for her to be able to make a choice and articulate it. Not all women are able to advocate for themselves like that. Not all women have the language required. Many may feel it is questioning authority going against cultural expectations. She may be afraid she will be expected to justify that choice. And she may be faced with an NHS that tells her her choice is inconvenient, she is being fussy, try to coerce her by saying the men are professional and have seen lots of breasts before, may say that means she has to wait longer or come back another time.

If there is to be choice it should be ‘mammography is a female only space, and you can be assured all clinician will be female, if you would prefer to be seen by a man then phone this number and this can be arranged’.

What about the women who would like to be seen quicker?how would it work they train a few men to do it then you phone a special number and what you get to jump the que? As you'll let a trained male who should be professional do it. If I women has a strong opinion about who's doing it she should be able to use her voice. It doesn't need to be f2f, it could be a box tick or yes/no on the phone.

Learning disabled women, women who have had strokes and cannot speak, blind women who need someone else to read and fill in the forms for them, women who speak little English: these all need breast screening and they deserve a presumption of female care because they cannot fully advocate for themselves. Which means that all women need a presumption of female care because the process and paperwork is the same for all of us.

Women make up 51% of the population. It should not be hard to locate 15 female mammographers to fill those vacancies.

What about the women who would like to be seen quicker?

We are talking about women called up to a screening program here. Why would they need to be seen quicker?

How do they go to a gynecologist then or smears men can already do those, which I feel is a for more intimate procedure. Women have been declining men doing those procedures already, there should be more women available to perform them but clearly there isn't.

Gynaecologists don’t do smears. I take it you aren’t in the UK either?