Allow Male Workers to perform mammograms and breast screening

[CrakdEgg]

OK, so the Society & College of Radiographers have their annual delegates conference, where members bring forward motions for the union to lobby on.
In the past they have passed motions to 'remove gendered language' from health communications for inclusivity - you know, 'pregnant people' and the like. They then lobby behind the scenes to the Government to follow these requests.

This year we have this motion -

Allow Male Workers to Perform Mammograms

Workforce shortages: there are 15 posts for mammographers on NHS jobs. In the UK.

But are we bothered? Do we not want males in this space, or does it not matter because we have male gynaecologists? Or will it dissuade women from attending?

I am interested to hear other people's opinions. My instincts say 'no way Jose', but I am interested in keeping males out of female spaces, so I accept my bias.

Thoughts?

Agree. And I'm also seeing a variation on a sadly familiar theme from maternity care - when women speak up because they were distressed by not being listened to or treated with dignity and respect during childbirth, they're often told they should just be grateful to be alive, with a healthy, living baby. In the same vein, we're now being told to just be more grateful we're getting potentially life-saving breast screening.

And those are absolutely things to be thankful for and not take for granted. But empathetic, patient-centred, trauma-informed care along the way also still matters.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a prude. The word has been thrown around like it's shameful. It's not. In the time of Only Fans and the incessant internet porn, how dare anyone shame a woman for saying no, her body is a private space and she will exercise her right to choose who sees it, including in health care settings.

It. Is. Allowed.

We are allowed to have and want privacy around our bodies.

Totally this. Women are entitled to have boundaries. ‘Prude’ is a misogynistic term whose use is purely to coerce women into giving up those boundaries.

Absolutely

This has actually happened and been documented on another MN thread about smears; mum said her Dd had organised a smear, said it had to be female nurse, she arrived and had to walk out of her smear as she had been allocated a man with stubble who said he "identified as a woman."

Back when I was visiting someone in hospital, I was very surprised that male HCAs were routinely performing intimate personal care for women on the ward. I'm not impugning the integrity or professionalism of these HCAs (in fact they seemed pretty lovely) but some of these women were completely bedbound, totally frail and clearly without the mental capacity to consent or object. It may have been causing them acute distress or humiliation in their last days but they were not in a position to communicate their wishes.

I remembered today that odious ex MP for Brighton Kemptown Lloyd Russell-Moyle - wasn't it him who made a fuss a few years ago because he accompanied a female friend to a mammogram appointment and wasn't allowed in the waiting room with her. I can't find anything about it now, but I'm sure it was him, he tweeted angrily about it. Anyone else remember it?

It occurs to me that this is all part of trying to remove any sex related accommodations throughout the health service. If everyone is treated as if their sex is irrelevant, as if we are all gender neutral, it would make life so much easier for the NHS. No need to bother with single sex provisions. No need to bother with a female only service. No need to bother with providing same sex - or even same gender - care. Patients placed anywhere there is a spare bed on the wards with no concern re their sex. Staffing done purely on numbers with no concerns related to same sex care.

It's so annoying that so many women take the "it doesn't bother me, why are you making such a fuss?" line - this is about more than mammograms. It's one skirmish in a much bigger picture. It will definitely affect all these women sooner or later.

At least they can no longer pull that one. With the SC judgment the woman can walk straight out and phone the EHRC and legal advice, she'd have a slam dunk case.

This isn’t about making it easier for the NHS. This is about removing women’s boundaries.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate Tell me you're in the US without telling me...
Women in the UK don't get to choose their obstetrician when giving birth, it's whoever is on duty. It's amazing how these threads attract American "cool girls" who are totes cool with male HCPs for gynae and breast procedures and can't even conceptualise why other women might legitimately not be, and want to wokescold us for wanting only women doing certain healthcare procedures

No idea what you are going on with? I’m not in the USA. I’ve never been a patient or clinician in the USA. Thanks for telling me about the NHS, I worked in it for many years at one point.

What you describe with the NHS (again, with which I’m very familiar) is exactly the same as our public system. I chose to give birth privately, as is my right. I have my mammograms via the public system though as our private system is not really set up for this.

I don’t apologise for wanting the best clinical care for myself and family, no matter what it relates to. Sometimes that will be a female, and sometimes that will be a male, depending on individual technical skill. My kids understand this concept, including my DD, and even at times when’s she’s been in hospital unable to be clothed/gowned and someone suggested a female nurse if she had a male assigned (1:1 intensive care situations in public system) she’s declined saying he can do his job just fine.

I did however have many years, while in training, where people wanted make doctors as they were obviously better and smarter than us feeble minded girls. How totes cool is that!!!!!

We get a lot of Americans coming onto this board to tell us off for wanting single-sex anything. Clues that I'm dealing with one include:

• using bathroom or restroom to mean loo.
• talking as though being able to choose your doctor is possible.

You were doing the latter so I mistook you for an American.

@selffellatingouroborosofhate You were doing the latter so I mistook you for an American

Many other countries have public/private system mixes so best not to assume things. You know the saying about making an ass😊.

Use of the term OB/GYN in any format, and referring to such a specialist in the context of family healthcare, is a pretty big indicator.

Use of the term OB/GYN in any format, and referring to such a specialist in the context of family healthcare, is a pretty big indicator

Only if you are ignorant and think there are two healthcare systems worldwide. It’s a very common thing you see in this site, if the NHS were not to exist then the ONLY other possible model would be the US. Lots of countries different systems that work well. I’m in a hybrid model where historically around a third of people (currently trending down to above a quarter due to current cost of living) use the private service for maternity, so you can choose private hospital of choice, have single room, ObGyn of choice which you see all the way through pregnancy and birth, a longer stay in hospital post birth if you want and lactation consultant services in hospital. Otherwise, as with NHS, you can also happily use the public system where you have well qualified people, but not ‘of choice’, an allocated hospital not necessarily ‘of choice’, and your stay may be shorter than you want with limited lactation assistance services. So, a third of people talking about their ObGyn’s, yet we are not American. Go figure.

If people put as much time and energy into educating themselves about different worldwide health models and barracking politically for something that would be ideal moving forward (as realistically the NHS is not sustainable unless you invade another country with oil fields), as they do being obsessed with the US system, then you have a chance of a decent healthcare future. If you continue with your ‘only the NHS or USA’ systems mentality you are going to be fucked moving forward as you’ve pretty much reached a point of breakdown with your system and heaven knows you don’t want a US system. Personally, I’d be putting way more effort into that than trying to restrict mammographers to be female only. Also not sure what then happens with men who require a mammogram (rare, but around 1% of breast we cancer is male), what if they only want a man? That’s not possible unless you expect them to travel potentially very long distances to a centralised service where a man exists who is allowed to do the job seeing men only.

Glad you got that off your chest.

Well this entire thread is about mammogram screening by the NHS so what was the point of your posts?
If someone starts a thread asking for advice about new tyres for their road bike I wouldn't reply that cars are also a method of transport and recommend a particular brand of car tyre.

Men aren't regularly screened for breast cancer (though perhaps if they have already been treated for it thry are? I don't know.) So I would assume that if a man needs a mammogram or other investigation,it happens at a hospital breast clinic, rather than at a screening mobile unit in a car park, and there will be lots of staff about of both sexes. But that is an assumption, not knowledge.

(I agree about different private models, but I think that's a different thread.)

You’re missing the point.

the poster was referring to the OBGYN terminology, which is a US phrase not usually used in the Uk. We would refer to obs and gynae. Pp wasn’t referring to your choice of healthcare, most of us know there is private/nhs and healthcare works differently elsewhere.

i know us terminology is creeping in but there are still several giveaways that someone is US based. Like OR, ER and pediatrician. (Theatre, A&E which still persists, ED for the young ones, and “peeds”)

the use of OBGYN is a clue someone is in the US. Simple as that . Nothing to do with the above rant about different healthcare systems.

Nice women don't want sex based rights.
Only silly old prudes (probably with saggy tits) want same sex health care
Sensible women understand that practicalities and a whole load of fast word salad burble is much more important than they and their bodies are.

It's all same old same old misogyny. It can get in the sea.

The NHS probably does need to be remodelled, but allowing men to perform mammograms isnt they way to do it.

the use of OBGYN is a clue someone is in the US

ffs. Yet, it’s not. As it’s a term many other places outside the USA uses. Again, if it’s not a UK/NHS term, doesn’t mean it’s a USA term by default. Again, it’s not an either or for terminology. Lots of places, not UK, and not USA use that term. How hard is that. Thus it is not really ‘a clue’. Many other terms you have referenced are used in many other health systems also, it’s not USA terms ‘creeping in’, it’s what many other places have historically called stuff, and still do. So, discount those as clues also and broaden your horizons for your clues.

AI summarises:

The terminology "OB-GYN" (Obstetrics and Gynecology) is primarily used in the United States. In other English-speaking countries, such as the UK, Canada, and Australia, the preferred term is "obstetrician and gynaecologist" (with the spelling "gynaecology").

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
United States:
The abbreviation "OB-GYN" is commonly used to refer to a doctor specializing in both Obstetrics (pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum care) and Gynecology (female reproductive health).

UK, Canada, and Australia:
While the field of study is the same, the spelling "gynaecology" and the term "obstetrician and gynaecologist" are preferred.

Also:

In Europe, specialists in obstetrics and gynaecology (OBGYN) are commonly referred to as gynaecologists or obstetricians. The term "OBGYN" is less frequently used in European countries compared to the US. Gynaecologists specialize in the female reproductive system, while obstetricians focus on pregnancy and childbirth.

Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Gynaecologist:
This term encompasses specialists who care for the female reproductive system, including conditions like menstrual problems, infections, and cancers.

Obstetrician:
This term refers to specialists who provide care during pregnancy, labor, and postpartum.

Combined Specialists:
Many doctors in Europe are trained in both obstetrics and gynaecology, meaning they can provide care for both aspects of women's reproductive health.

I suppose I could go through all the countries in the world but I suspect that’s not a very productive way to spend my day.

Telling people in another country how they should receive healthcare sound rather like colonialism to me.

Did I miss @HoppingPavlovatelling us where they were from? I’m going to guess Australia because of the user name. Regardless I’m not sure what they can usefully add to a discussion about personal experiences of UK breast cancer screening services.