A spectrum of stupidity

[proximalhumerous]

I'm not a scientist, but I am struck by what appears to me the profound illogicality of people stating that sex is a spectrum.

Are people (intentionally or otherwise) confusing all members of a group not being identical (i.e. having differing hormone levels, etc.) with there not being a clear binary of gamete-producing pathways?

I've just read this utter twaddle on the website of the Crab Museum in Margate:

"Today the Supreme Court voted to exclude a group of persecuted people from equality legislation. Their ruling centred on the word "biology", with the judge stating that biological sex is "assumed to be self-explanatory and to require no further explanation." Speaking in a professional capacity as museum of biology: this is not how biology works.

There are no binaries in nature, and biology, like all sciences, should never be taken for granted or assumed to be "self-explanatory". Even worse, it should never be used to justify weaponised culture war issues. This ruling is an abuse of science.

We have spoken many times before about this - there is immense variation between individuals within a biological sex. Biological sex itself (not just gender) is a spectrum - and it really shouldn't be a big deal.

If you don't like trans people then just be honest about your prejudices. But don't use biology to support your views in the same way that racists do.

Our trans siblings must be defended at all costs. If we allow the limitation of their rights then other minorities won't be far behind.

Maybe you'll be next?"

Nobody is excluded from equality legislation, surely?

Speaking as museum of biology? What does that mean, exactly?

No binaries in nature? Really?

Trans people must be defended "at all costs"??

I mean some backlash was inevitable, but how can so-called biologists be so deluded?

Well the first sentence is wrong on two counts. Tp aren't persecuted in this country and the SC was very clear that they are still protected under the Equality Act under gender reassignment.

Quite. And it doesn't exactly improve from there.

Let me help you with a couple of items.

2. An oldie, but a goodie:

Rebecca Helm, a biologist and an assistant professor at the University of North Carolina, Asheville US writes:

“Friendly neighborhood biologist here. I see a lot of people are talking about biological sexes and gender right now. Lots of folks make biological sex sex seem really simple. Well, since it’s so simple, let’s find the biological roots, shall we? Let’s talk about sex...

If you know a bit about biology you will probably say that biological sex is caused by chromosomes, XX and you’re female, XY and you’re male. This is “chromosomal sex” but is it “biological sex”? Well...
Turns out there is only ONE GENE on the Y chromosome that really matters to sex. It’s called the SRY gene. During human embryonic development the SRY protein turns on male-associated genes. Having an SRY gene makes you “genetically male”. But is this “biological sex”?

Sometimes that SRY gene pops off the Y chromosome and over to an X chromosome. Surprise! So now you’ve got an X with an SRY and a Y without an SRY. What does this mean?

A Y with no SRY means physically you’re female, chromosomally you’re male (XY) and genetically you’re female (no SRY). An X with an SRY means you’re physically male, chromsomally female (XX) and genetically male (SRY). But biological sex is simple! There must be another answer...

Sex-related genes ultimately turn on hormones in specifics areas on the body, and reception of those hormones by cells throughout the body. Is this the root of “biological sex”??

“Hormonal male” means you produce ‘normal’ levels of male-associated hormones. Except some percentage of females will have higher levels of ‘male’ hormones than some percentage of males. Ditto ditto ‘female’ hormones. And...
...if you’re developing, your body may not produce enough hormones for your genetic sex. Leading you to be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally non-binary, and physically non-binary. Well, except cells have something to say about this...

Maybe cells are the answer to “biological sex”?? Right?? Cells have receptors that “hear” the signal from sex hormones. But sometimes those receptors don’t work. Like a mobile phone that’s on “do not disturb’. Call and cell, they will not answer.

What does this all mean?
It means you may be genetically male or female, chromosomally male or female, hormonally male/female/non-binary, with cells that may or may not hear the male/female/non-binary call, and all this leading to a body that can be male/non-binary/female.

Try out some combinations for yourself. Notice how confusing it gets? Can you point to what the absolute cause of biological sex is? Is it fair to judge people by it?

Of course you could try appealing to the numbers. “Most people are either male or female” you say. Except that as a biologist professor I will tell you...
The reason I don’t have my students look at their own chromosome in class is because people could learn that their chromosomal sex doesn’t match their physical sex, and learning that in the middle of a 10-point assignment is JUST NOT THE TIME.

Biological sex is complicated. Before you discriminate against someone on the basis of “biological sex” & identity, ask yourself: have you seen YOUR chromosomes? Do you know the genes of the people you love? The hormones of the people you work with? The state of their cells?

Since the answer will obviously be no, please be kind, respect people’s right to tell you who they are, and remember that you don’t have all the answers. Again: biology is complicated. Kindness and respect don’t have to be.'

Note: Biological classifications exist. XX, XY, XXY XXYY and all manner of variation which is why sex isn't classified as binary. You can't have a binary classification system with more than two configurations even if two of those configurations are more common than others.
Biology is a shitshow. Be kind to people.”

So in essence just wait till the chromosomal tests come out as compulsory in sports or to access facilities. More CIS Women then trans women will be captured and have to use the men's or a third space.

I’m just PMSL at a crab museum pronouncing on the law. Who the heck do they think they are? Do fishermen now identify as lawyers and biologists?

'exclude a group of persecuted people from equality legislation'

Persecuted, since when, excluded, they have their own protected characteristic. Who runs this museum?

Emma Hilton, Research Fellow at University of Manchester

Oops, the image didn't come out.

We have spoken many times before about this - there is immense variation between individuals within a biological sex.

How can you determine whether there's "immense variation between individuals within a biological sex" unless you decide where the boundary is to determine "within" or not!?!?!

Fucking morons.

They should be grilled on what sort of transphobic sex line boundaries they're drawing on their spectrum. And what the x-axis is, of course.

Yes, that tickled me as well.

Depends on your definition of persecution. They are definitely discriminated against:

1. Waiting lists of 5-10 years to see an NHS Gender clinic, just for a first appointment.

2. The vast majority of articles on trans people in the daily press are negative.

3. Assaults and reported abuse on the rise.

4. No treatment options for transkids who go through an extensive process before even accessing blockers signed off by experts in the field. (The Cass Review has not been followed anywhere in the world, and instead criticised for a biased methodology). Even Baddenoch confirmed she was pleased with what her appointment had acheived.

5. Trans people now to be tested for Autism. Why?

6. New toilet rules proposed by a biased EHRC stacked by the previous government (kemi/Liz) again. Who will employ a trans person now if they have to build a new facility for their bathroom?

However, there is no law that regulates toilet access. That's right, no law. It's by convention only. So trans people will I am told keep using the facilities they identify with, unless there are specific rules issued by a private facility and assessed on an individual basis for any exceptions.

Wait for the toilet police. This is going to be rather fun.

Quite the mess out there, bit of an own goal really.

This was never over :)

There are no binaries in nature,

Dead - alive
Pregnant - not pregnant

(Yes, I know I'm repeating myself)

Lots of things are on a spectrum; height, weight, though often they're a bimodal distribution because of sex which is binary. Even species that, like clown fish, are capable of shifting from male to female or vice versa do not have a third sex. Humans, in fact no mammals can change sex, it is determined at conception. Occasionally something can go wrong leading to DSDs (differences of sexual development sometimes erroneously called intersex). Howver, broken males or broken females are still male or female. They are the exceptions that prove (test) the rule. Their existence proves that it is a rule.

I didn't even know there was a crab museum. Crabs and their alikes are fascinating there's a phenomenon of convergent evolution that scientists have called 'carcinization',

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-animals-keep-evolving-into-crabs/

Though the lego analogy at the end is, imo, ridiculous.

I think there should be a term for the way gender ideology displays the actual idiocy of people and organisations who you would think were smart.

Let me help you with a couple of items try to patronise you.

How many gamete types are there in humans? In other mammals? In fish? In reptiles? In invertebrates? In plants?

Deeper levels of biological understanding do not invalidate the sex binary. We each have precisely two genetic parents, one of whom provided a sperm and one of whom provided an egg, via which our genetic inheritance and our sex are derived.

Note: Biological classifications exist. XX, XY, XXY XXYY and all manner of variation which is why sex isn't classified as binary. You can't have a binary classification system with more than two configurations even if two of those configurations are more common than others.

This doesn't make sense. The classifications are male/female - small gamete producing and large gamete producing or potentially able to impregnate or able to be impregnated. That is your two configurations.

XXY and XXYY are anomalies - DSDs. As I said, I'm not a scientist, but I remember learning about anomalies in GCSE biology and the main takeaway was to be able to recognise them and to know that you had to disregard them when making hypotheses (I imagine that was a simplification as this was only GCSE, but that was the gist).

Also, as I understand it, XY doesn't make you male in itself, but sets in motion a chain of processes which lead to a foetus developing as typically male. If something goes wrong (with, for example, the SRY gene) then you end up with a DSD such as Sywer's Syndrome.

XXY is Klinefelter Syndrome where a male has an extra X chromosome. A male. Not an in-betweeny thing. A male who has some biological issues such as having small testicles, probably being infertile, possibly having learning difficulties, but nevertheless a male.

So in essence just wait till the chromosomal tests come out as compulsory in sports or to access facilities. More CIS Women then trans women will be captured and have to use the men's or a third space.

Gazillions of people have been sequenced at this point, both scientifically (I know someone who does ~300 human genomes every week for cancer research) and for genealogy (Ancestry, 23andme, etc) if there were cases were the assumed sex of a person doesn't match the genetic sex we would have seen that by now. Strangely, there aren't any people popping up in the Ancestry chat boards talking about how they always thought they were male but are in fact female.

Here is the image for those asking :)

Re. number 5 - because there is an extremely high incidence of ASD amongst trans-identifying people. And if someone is neuro-divergent and erroneously concludes that their feelings of not fitting in mean they have been "born in the wrong body" and so should transition to resolve this, all you end up with is someone who is still neuro-divergent but who now fits in less comfortably with people of their original sex, probably not easily with people of the sex they have transitioned to, and who has acquired a lifetime of medical problems to deal with into the bargain.

But you probably knew that already.

You can’t argue with stupid, sadly. I gave up years ago.

I love this!

🦀🦀🏐🏐🥜🦀……😳

Apparently people are able to recognise sex from photographs (even with all cultural markers removed) at 96-98% accuracy

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004269892200133X

Which would be impossible if sex was a spectrum.

It's backwards reasoning - nobody claimed that sex was bimodal or anything like that before trans people wanted it to be true.

From crabs to gobbledegook in just a handful of posts. I love the spectrum of diversity of opinions here.

If you don't like trans people then just be honest about your prejudices. But don't use biology to support your views in the same way that racists do.

I don't like aggressive trans rights activists who get hard-ons from shouting at and intimidating women in public. Nor who peddle lies to vulnerable, impressionable young people, setting them down on a lifetime's medicalised pathway to misery. If those are 'prejudices' I own it and wear the badge with pride.

Our trans siblings must be defended at all costs.

I only have one sibling. My brother. No other minority groups I am aware of are laying claim to intimate familial relationships in this way. They are fellow-citizens. They are not 'family'.

If we allow the limitation of their rights then other minorities won't be far behind.

Maybe you'll be next?"

Too fucking late. But then women don't count as fully human.

The Margate Crab Museum sounds like it’s run by activists, going by the state of that unprofessional spiel.

I hope they’re not being funded with public money…

Hilarious.

Do they ask themselves: of all these excitingly diverse crabs types of humans on these biological spectrums - which of them can reproduce together? Has this ever changed?

They are 3 men according to their website.

I don't see how you can respect any scientist - anyone, in fact - who says, "respect people's right to tell you who they are" in the context of this discussion. It is so clearly demonstrably nonsense. Ok then, I'm a hamster. I'm a saucepan. I'm the Eiffel Tower. When we are talking about science and logic and the law, we need proper definitions, not just fuzzy feelings.

It is insane for a definition to be someone's fantasy - how can we possibly communicate like that?

"Could you pass me that saucepan? No, that's a hamster. No, I said 'pass', not 'bash me over the head with...'" Etc.