Why do trans people try to pretend they are the opposite sex

[DragonRunor]

instead of accepting that they have a sex? They also have a gender identity. Both could be recorded on id documents, and they could tell everyone clearly and honestly who they are. Trying to pretend they’re something they are not just makes it seem like they’re ashamed

Subject to bullying and violence for being trans? Then that needs to be addressed by society challenging the perpetrators, not by victims hiding.

TWANW, they are TW and could be accepted and respected for that

The reasons why some people wither want to reject their sex or why others want to identify as the opposite sex are complex and varied? Teenage girls, especially vulnerable autistic ones struggling with puberty, may be motivated by the desire to avoid becoming an adult/woman and all that they see this entails; an adult AGP male will have a whole load of pornified and misogynistic reasons for wanting to colonise womanhood.

The issue is that there is no one definition of ‘trans’ any more - so there’s no simple answer to your question, or single solution in the real world.

Reading the TGUK reddit, it does seem that many seem to think that your gender identity IS your sex. So they actually ARE female but their bodies have been formed incorrectly, hence the absolute entitlement to transitional interventions (you wouldn't deny someone with a congenitally missing leg a prosthesis, would you?).

This is why the conversation goes nowhere. Their fundamental understanding if their bodies is at variance with biology, or common sense. And why talking about aetiology (the cause) of dysphoria/transness is so forbidden.

And I blame my own profession for colluding in this misinformation. If medicine (especially psychiatry) had been clearer about what was being treated with transition and why (ignoring the evidence part of the equation for a moment), we'd have less of a mess. Gender incongruence isn't a thing.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that all do. A lot of the older generation know and admit what their sex is. I would imagine that regardless of opinion on that, changing ID documents is also a pragmatic choice to minimise strangers finding out their sex/that they are trans-identified. There is undoubtably a lot of shame about it, some of which is inherent to the mental health condition they have, but I think the way society treats gender non-conforming people has a lot to do with it too.

This in a nutshell.

I’d agree with this. There are trans women who had full gender reassignment surgery who are very clear they are biological men but having surgery had made them feel more comfortable with themselves. Very much against any bloke being able to identify as a woman, GRC reserved for people who had reassignment surgery type views.

Unfortunately they tend to get roasted by TRAs as truscum so it’s a brave soul to stick their head above the parapet.

Their sex is whatever they say it is and is on a spectrum…at the same time there seems to be an extreme interest in fitting exactly correctly into stereotypical male or female box and passing as one or the other. The younger ones are all seem confused and also desperate to have some kind of gender label to answer the question ‘who am I?’ Being a feminine male or a masculine female genuinely doesn’t appear to be an option for them. It’s a mess.

I think also, for many trans people caught up in online communities, there can be a lot of competition to pass as the opposite sex and to post updated photos showing the progression, or to celebrate when someone IRL has used their preferred pronouns.

Listening to detransitioners, many describe how much headspace and energy their trans identity took up and how it was like a huge project, with the ultimate prize being passing. Which seems consistent with how trans people tend to engage with their online communities.

It’s interesting that the ultimate aim of the members of the community is to get out of the community by somehow “becoming” the opposite sex and thus no longer trans.

No idea, it's actually hard being female so really unsure why so many males want to pretend to be female. I do find it very tiresome indeed. It's just total nonsense and just another way mostly men try to infringe on things women have.

A lot of trans people have a GRC, which in the past has been used to signify a change of "sex" in legal aspects (obvs this isnt the case now)
However i don't know any trans people who have argued that they have changed sex, most are pretty aware of the difference between sex and gender and would talk about their transition in terms of gender

what exactly prompted the OP? Was it a specific incident/issue?

It’s interesting that the ultimate aim of the members of the community is to get out of the community by somehow “becoming” the opposite sex and thus no longer trans.

So they think there's something wrong or lesser about being trans? A sort of internalised transphobia?

I suppose this does make a sort of sense. Trans ideology is all about conformity. Choose your sex to match your personality, rather than being gender non-conforming. Then try to convince people that you really are the sex you're masquerading as, not just a facsimile. And then you are a real conformist.

I believe some of the legal aspects are still applicable. Michael Foran explained it well - a GRC impacts on a transgender person's interaction with the government. So things like HMRC, birth certificates, marriage certificates and death certificates. Ultimately it is still a legal fiction and should be done away with in my opinion, but at least it doesn't allow for self ID into female only spaces anymore. That was the most pressing concern IMO.

I think a lot of transgender people are ashamed to be transgender. Again, this makes sense when you look at how society treats being GNC. But also, look at the behaviour of TRAs. Reasonable and ethical trans-identified people don't want to be associated with that kind of behaviour. And yes, some do exist, even if they are rare.

Choose your sex to match your personality

Not everyone who would describe themselves as trans feels the same way. I'm a trans guy and I don't think it has anything to do with my " gendered personality". Just, as long as I can remember, the concept I held of myself in my head was not "female". I know I'm female, but it feels wrong. I don't think I could be described as "masculine" and actually quite enjoy a lot of stereotypically "feminine" things so I didn't just sit there one day and go "I like the 'boy' things so I must be a boy". I have very much always been of the opinion that "men can wear dresses and have long hair and wear makeup", always appreciated androgyny of the types like Brian Molko from Placebo. Women and girls can have short hair and be strong and independent and makeupless and hairy, whatever! That's how I was raised. One of my earliest loves was the singer P!NK back in her "rock" days. Stereotypes are restrictive, and they are bullshit, everything is for anyone in that regard.

I honestly can't explain it to you though - it's like my basis of identity is incorrect somehow. Even as a small child, my family all used to think it was just a joke like an imaginary friend or whatever, but I used to say "I'm not Alice, I'm James!". It can be hard to describe how it really feels. The idea that it is purely do to with restrictive ideas of masculinity/feminity and gender roles all the time is just incorrect - I was always happy to wear a skirt if I so wanted to, but there was always the feeling of wishing, thinking back on my teen days, that I were perceived as a "boy in a skirt" and not a "girl in a skirt". Nowadays, I wear anything I want, shop in both sections of the store.

For me there's just always been something wrong inside. I know the replies I'll get - there's nothing wrong, I'm just delusional and need mental help. But I'm just trying to explain how it doesn't always track with these "gendered personality" stories.

Plus all the ones who have a sexual fetish about dressing/acting as a woman.
And then are the ones who have been convicted of sexual offences as men but suddenly find their inner woman when it comes to being sentenced.
Or the mediocre male athletes who can be champions if they compete against women.
I don’t think they are all necesarily predatory. I mean, they can show a lot of male aggression in order to stop anyone speaking up against them, but I don’t know if that is counted as predatory.

Years ago I used to work in acute mental health services. We had a lot of what we called transsexuals. They had to sign a document before surgery to state they understood they would not actually be women
A lot of different groups now come under the trans umbrella but tbh most of those I worked with displayed what we now call AGP
I also think there are a group of men who cannot stand women having anything of their own

Just posting to add, that often in the process to get a GRC, trans people are expected by the ones who diagnose you, give you hormones, or decide if you are able to get your GRC, to adhere to gender norms.

Of course I have trans friends, finding community is important to us. I know of trans men who are more feminine be denied diagnosis of gender dysphoria because they didn't adhere to masculine gender norms - they showed up to the appointment with long hair, maybe they had some makeup on, or they were wearing something "feminine", or they admitted to being a "stereotypical girl" in regards to their interests and hobbies as a child.

There's this idea in the medical world at times, that if you're a trans guy you should be "masculine" and vice versa. Sometimes we are boxed into these stereotypes in order to "prove" ourselves to these professionals. This is where you hear of trans people "lying" to get a diagnosis - presenting as overly masculine at appointments so they are believed.

It's a bit of a Catch-22 in that regard. You don't base your identity as a trans guy on masculinity or gender norms but some medical person thinks you should or you can't possibly have dysphoria. 🙄

Too GNC with regards to your desired sex - can't be trans
Too gender conforming with regards to desired sex - you're sexist who believes in gender roles

(btw, I think the above is actually in part due to the way transgender ideology has developed - it's no longer just about having a deep-seated disconnect and dysphoria about your sex, it's about "gender" and all the bullshit gender norms therefore get thrown in too... It was never about gender norms for me, it was about a crippling sense of wrongness in my own sexed body and desire to look like and be seen as a male! So why am I being asked if I preferred playing with Barbies or Spider-Man by this therapist!? And is it wrong to saying I actually liked both?)

I promise I'm done ranting about the gender stuff now. It's just so frustrating. There is a split regarding this in the trans community as it is.

I don’t know any trans women but the ones in the public eye seem obsessed with looking girlish and attractive rather than actually leading a woman’s hard and -more-demanding-than men’s life. So I feel they want the fun bits - not the real thing.

I wouldn't call your posts 'rants' at all, Zandax, they are very interesting and thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience.

Having had a very gender-confused childhood I recognise a lot of what you say.

I think it throws up a lot of questions, though - it all seems to comes down to the concept of 'feeling wrong', which is so personal and indefinable..
It wasn't that you wanted to play with Spiderman rather than Barbie, it isn't that you want to conform to masculine stereotypes instead of feminine ones...

It seems to come down to an essence of 'boyness' or 'girlness', which transcend gender stereotypes, and you feel were issued with the 'wrong' essence, and you describe the fall-out from that as a 'crippling sense of wrongness'.

I felt something similar when I was growing up. I'm sure a lot of it was because being a boy seemed to be an easier and more exciting way through life, but actually I didn't necessarily want to be a boy, I just knew I didn't want to be a girl, and didn't want to grow up to be a woman.

It never occurred to me that there was an 'essence' of boyness or girlness, it was more which team you had been selected for, and I felt that the girls' team was definitely non-league

Pragmatism won out when puberty hit; fortunately for me puberty blockers, transitioning, etc were unheard of at that time, so I worked out my own way forward in life as a gender non-conforming lesbian woman.

As such, I always have a slight inkling of regret when I hear of a woman changing her body from a woman's body, the kind I like a lot, to something resembling a man's body, which I don't like at all...

anyway, thanks again for your posts!

I am a convert to Judaism. I identify as Jewish and I am on the census as Jewish. I had a liberal conversion which progressive denominations (and the state of Israel albeit begrudgingly) recognize but the orthodox jewish do not recognize it.

I am always transparent with people that I am not an orthodox convert though they probably can tell from the way I dress. I know they probably don't regard me as Jewish but I frankly don't care and no one has been tactless enough to tell me to my face they don't think I am Jewish..

I don't get why trans people can't do the same. Their claim to being female is much more contentious given that being female involves having xx chromosomes which we cant change compared to religion which is more of a social construct.

we live in the uk which is a Christian country and as far as I know no one has crowned the orthodox jewish authorities as the ultimate authority on all things Jewish so they have equal say with the other denominations on this matter. I do accept that they are the majority even if most of their members don't keep most of their standards.

Can't people just be whoever they want to be and identify as such but accept a lot of people wouldn't see them as such. And shouldn't be compelled to.

@Zandax
Thank you for your insight

It’s incredibly complex and varied because each individual has different motives, thoughts, background, mental complexities etc. A proportion of trans individuals felt that “they were trapped in the wrong body” all their lives, even as prepubescent children, often they don’t know the terms so it’s very much dress up. My relative felt different from a toddler refusing to wear dresses and crying at not being a boy, they can’t remember not feeling they were trans despite not knowing the term and at the time it was far rarer to be talked about.

I know others who dabbled in being trans then reverted back to birth sex so i definitely think transition needs to be taken slowly but they do exist, and are not trying to infiltrate same sex spaces deliberately.

the m to f trans I know were all older at transition

I get the point that many don’t

I think the point about shame/hiding was exactly what I was trying to get at. Why should anyone feel ashamed of who they are? I think the idea inherent in ‘trans-rights’ ie that everyone should facilitate the pretence is based on shame. I’m interested in why that is?