You may be right but you should be ashamed of yourself

[Pluvia]

Yesterday, at a Labour Party meeting, I proposed we should consider a motion welcoming the Supreme Court ruling and the clarity it offers women and lesbians in particular. The local transactivist nearly exploded with righteous indignation. My suggestion was voted down, almost unanimously.

On the way out someone who I know to be GC caught up with me and quietly said 'You may be right but you should be ashamed of yourself.' I asked whether I should be ashamed for supporting women and girls rights, or whether I should be ashamed of raising this at a Labour Party meeting when both our Labour prime minister and a key member of his cabinet had accepted and welcomed the ruling. They said 'Both'.

I can only conclude they are angry at me for being right and doing something about when they didn't dare do it themselves.

A friend of mine once said about an acquaintance of ours, "He won't stop arguing even if you agree with him. He'll argue until he's convinced himself that he's more right than you are." (It wasn't related to any feminist issues.)

I think this is it exactly. I am right but for reasons which complicate things and don't lend themselves to easy answers.

Oh dear. Being right is soooooo transphobic, how very dare you!

I suppose this is what it's going to come to, when people can't bear to let go of their beliefs but have no argument to support them in the face of the logical clarity and basic fairness that is now being allowed to be seen and heard. Being right in itself counts as not being kind and therefore should be banned.

Reminds me a bit of chatting to my local Labour MSP at his street stall before the general election (he was supporting the MP) about this issue. He tried to "be kind" me and I said "but it's not just about being kind, it's about reality, why should women be kind to males who take their sporting places and medals when it's simply not true that they are female or belong in the female category?" or words to that effect.

MSP (condescendingly): "Well let's not get all tied up and hot and bothered over what's "true".

Blimey.

I do understand being secretly GC as I have to do that with some work clients; however I have never pretended to support gender ideology as a cover, I just don't go there.

I want to say, I spent a fair chunk of my life in the unions and the left wing activist space. I've never actually been a Labour member, because whenever I consider it I think of friends who've been Labour members for decades and it just seems to make them miserable.

Simply based on experience, I'm convinced that most of these orgs on the left have been thinly disguised MRA groups all along, and their enthusiasm for all things trans is because it gives them a socially acceptable way to express that. Certainly lots of male allies have outed themselves as open MRAs, and you don't even want to start me on the women - don't want to out myself, but I do know people personally who have disgraced themselves on the issue and will be familiar to FWR regulars.

Have I moved right? Some people would say so, and I don't really care. I've definitely become much more open and less tribal in my thinking. If I follow Mary Harrington or Louise Perry, it's not because I agree with them on everything, but I like some of what they say and, where I disagree, they provoke me to think and I believe I could have an argument with them.

Basic thing for me - I have robust disagreements with my right wing friends but feel I'm constantly biting my tongue with my remaining left wing friends. There's only one of those groups who I can imagine circulating an open letter denouncing me as an enemy of the people.

So what I think it comes down to is, where do you think you might be able to have a discussion and maybe persuade people? That's just a pragmatic question and depends a lot on where each of us is personally.

Have I moved right? Some people would say so, and I don't really care. I've definitely become much more open and less tribal in my thinking.

I definitely relate to this - I am and have always been very left-wing economically and politically, but my loyalty to "the left" has ebbed away over many years of seeing people cling to dogma and reject common sense in ways that I just can't respect or understand. I'm not left-wing because I belong to a tribe, party or group but because I think wealth should be redistributed and institutions are generally better if not privatised, but that doesn't mean I refuse to listen to other views, can't accept flaws in my own views or write off anyone who's not blindly "progressive" on every topic.

It was about 20 years ago that I realised I quite liked reading more right-leaning press sometimes, not because I agreed with most of it, but because it wqs generally better-written, more erudite, wittier and more open-minded. I felt really guilty about that at first.

You did well. Well done.

The only shame this scaredycat feels is her own, and she's taking it out on you.

@WhatterySquash I'm in a similar position to you. I'm committed to the redistribution of wealth but socially I've been questioning my stance for some years and have probably shifted to the centre or a bit beyond after reading people like Mary Harrington. I've been a feminist since my school days but it's really only in the last 20 years I've really felt how deep the misogyny runs and how difficult it is to fight it.

Sorry no time read all the thread, but have read the first page.

Whatever else, OP deserves a round of applause and more for taking on to re-engage with Labour, and speak up.

It must take a lot of self determination, and remaining calm in the face of complete batshittery.

Epic Freudian slip :) Yes indeed, your crime was to not be made only of mind but to insist that we are made of matter and that this matters. Idealist utopians, sit down. Materialist realists, this is your moment. These Labour Party members really could do with a workshop to remind them of Political Theory 101 and their positioning as a party of the Left.

They got rid of secret ballots?

I left the Labour Party as a member in 2019 because of the insistence at the Party Conference that s show of hands (on a crucial Brexit vote) was "democratic".

On the way out someone who I know to be GC caught up with me and quietly said 'You may be right but you should be ashamed of yourself.'

From your description of them speaking to you quietly, and agreeing that you're right, it was a private conversation with no one to perform to, so the "you should be ashamed of yourself" part wasn't to maintain cover within the group.

Which is such a strange thing for someone to do, if they hold GC/sex realist views. I'm secretly GC and I keep my opinions to myself and avoid it as a conversation as much as possible so I can avoid having to say things I don't believe (I'm in Canada and it would result in career and social ostracism, and I'm isolated enough for unrelated reasons). Even though I keep them quiet, my beliefs are genuinely and deeply held. I have read about this topic so much it's quite consuming! Even if I disagreed with them on aspects of gender I cannot imagine thinking that someone openly GC should be ashamed, let alone telling them that in person.

I'm curious about this mentality and really struggling to understand how a GC person could hold these two conflicting views: you're right but also you should feel ashamed. It smacks of the whole idea that women are "gloating" and that we should be ashamed of that. We should have just kept quiet about the ruling and said "oh yes, we're so so sorry about the unfortunate reality that woman means biological sex and that it hurts men's feelings. Maybe we went too far and even though this ruling reflects reality we'll just be nice and let you lovely men who think you're women keep using all our spaces".

I think that many women are finding it deeply, deeply uncomfortable and disturbing to be the ones asserting reality and being disagreeable by saying "no" and that we will not accommodate these men and their demands.

@VeronicasMonocle I think there’s something in what you say. Look at the visceral reaction to that photo of JKR. It did look like she was gloating and people could not stand it.

Pluvia · Today 13:05

Yes, I know that.

I'm sorry if that came across as patronising, that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to voice my support for you and indignation on your behalf.

I like your position and answer. I would have always considered myself a small l liberal, fiscally conservative but I’ve become much more second wave feminist in my outlook of late, because the scales fell from my eyes regarding gender and sex positivity; possibly because sex became easily and highly commodified with online pornography etc.

I have always felt that discussion is more free on the right than on the left. Dinner parties with left leaning friends are somewhat agonising because they seem to be biting their tongue and not wanting to say the wrong things or offend.

I like talking to people and hearing their views on all sorts of topics, I find other people fascinating. I don’t need to persuade, I am just curious and wanting to understand.

Let us hope your MSP is never called for jury service...

You didn't come across as patronising. I was just agreeing: in RL you would have seen me nodding and smiling.

I do think we have to be careful with this. We shouldn’t be ashamed. We have nearly got what we wanted . A recognition of female as a sex class and restoring of the previous status quo where nuance was allowed as access was not a given. (I say nearly because as OP says some will be trying to overturn this and it’s not bedded in yet)

We do need to make sure this doesn’t give actual transphobes a free ride and we don’t cause too much discomfort in this turning tide.

From some of the posts I have read it seems like some don’t want these people to have anywhere to use the loo! That is untenable and the only working third space solution readily available at the moment is the accessible/ disabled loos.

I do feel now is the time to support trans people. Many will be feeling like what we all felt like when they said woman was a gender. Their whole identity being rocked and having been there it’s very difficult. So I do think some compassion and recognition of that would go a long way.

I do feel now is the time to support trans people.

No, no, no, no, no. Stop telling women to be kind. You are just the kind of person who would tell a feminist woman who's put herself on the line for all women that she should be ashamed of herself. Go look in the mirror and see a gullible idiot looking back at you.

Whilst I can see where you’re coming from, I think you overstate that we have nearly got what we wanted. There are huge swathes of government departments that have been hugely captured by this insidious ideology and it’s going to take a long time to unpick.

We tried being accommodating, understanding and kind in the beginning and look where that led. If we show any weakness now they will pounce on it, just like they did before.

Women have had to go to court in the 21st century, in order to be recognised as a sex class, just think for a minute how utterly ridiculous and reprehensible that is.

Personally, I’m all out of kindness towards an ideology that has caused so much harm to women and vulnerable young people. Moving forwards needs to be based on cold, hard facts, not feelings. If trans people are worried about it, they should blame the people who sold them the lie, not the women who correctly pointed out that the emperor had no clothes.

No it’s not - they can use the toilet for their sex

and women do not need to be careful about the feelz of men

Is any time ever not the time to support trans people?

Unitarily I do feel now is the time to support trans people. Many will be feeling like what we all felt like when they said woman was a gender. Their whole identity being rocked and having been there it’s very difficult. So I do think some compassion and recognition of that would go a long way.

There have been lots of expressions of compassion/empathy/sympathy with trans people who have been fooled into thinking that they can change sex, and a lot of anger against individuals, organisations, 'experts' and parliamentarians who have been responsible for misleading a whole generation of young people that 'transitioning' was not just possible, but legal.

As a result of this massive campaign of misinformation, an emboldened trans community - all 262,000 of them, according to the last, possibly exaggerated, UK census figures - believe that they are entitled to everything that their 'assumed sex' has historically been entitled to have on a single-sex basis, and that language, the law, medicine, education, sport etc have to change to satisfy their demands. No debate.

That's not the fault of women who have been calling out the misinformation all along, and who have been at the sharp end of it. Our whole identity was appropriated, often mocked, and rights that we thought we had secured after centuries of struggle were taken away in a matter of years because TRAs wanted them.

#bekind was such a devious slogan as it played into the conditioning that women grow up with to be caring, often to the extent of self-sacrifice.

We are declining to #bekind and the SC has backed us up, and #bekind is now replaced with #bejust.

If that feels like a bucket of cold water thrown over transpeople who have been told they can have their rights, but not other people's as well - sorry, but sometimes you have to #becruel to #bekind.

The most important beneficiaries will be the next generation of gender-confused children who will not be sold the falsehood that they can change their sex, and hopefully they will be offered all the love and support they need to live their best lives in the bodies they were born with, instead of 'transitioning'.

I am not saying ‘be kind’, but we can’t come of malicious either.

These people need somewhere to go the loo. Some will not be safe in men’s. I think we need express permission by government that the accessible loos are open for transgender individuals and potentially give them radar keys. It is a medical condition after all.

We can be practical, compassionate yet strong also. I don’t think it undermines our position.

The TRAs being unreasonable is part of what made their position untenable.

If trans people are going to be considered eligible to use accessible toilets then we will need to build more accessible toilets. The ratio of accessible toilets to regular ones is based on data about the number of disabled people in society.