Reasons you once believed in gender identity

[Mermoose]

Edit: damnit I should have included "Never believed TWAW" in the poll. Sorry. There doesn't seem a way of editing the poll.

I read Victoria Smith's brilliant Substack "More Heat, More Light", which is about the impossible restrictions put on GC women's expression, but also about her journey from agreeing outwardly that TWAW, to consciously recognising that she didn't believe this. Fear and guilt stopped her from realising this earlier.

When I thought I believed TWAW it was also because I was afraid to think about it. I'd internalised the propaganda that there was something cruel and prurient in asking questions. "Why are you obsessed with other people's genitals" was quite effective for a while. (Of course sex is politically salient precisely because sex affects our entire bodies).

Some people never believed TWAW, I know. But for those of us who once did - or who believed we believed it, if that fits better - was it fear and guilt stopping you from really thinking about it, or was it that you did think about it and had what seemed like well-thought-out arguments? And if you had arguments that seemed sound at one time, what were they?

For people who still believe TWAW I think there are a lot of other threads where you can put forward arguments for this, so I'd like this thread just to be about people who did believe TWAW and have since changed their minds.

I hadn't really thought about it. I just felt like it was a very few people who were really struggling. The moment I paid attention was the moment I knew there was a problem.

None of the above.

For me, quite simple. I am a left wing progressive person, and the progressive left started saying TWAW, be kind, and I went along with it unthinkingly.

I did not think about it because it did not occur to me that it neeed thinking about, after all "do same sex attracted people deserve rights?" didn't need much thought so why should the next cause?

This thread is not about peaking, but I will say, briefly, that when I did start thinking (as a result of a certain Magdalen Berns) the whole ideology fell apart like a very cheap suit in a VERY short space of time.

Yep, I can imagine a lot of people have similar stories, especially on the left.

JK Rowling really has become a figure of hate.....it is terrible to see. People just keep bringing it back to her in every discussion.

You know what, despite my previous answer, I think there was a bit of that too. I think my belief was actually more like "TWAW, but obviously not the same as real women, but we must all call them women and be kind, because they are a kind of woman".

The fundamental point - and I think this must go for so many of us - is that our natural inclination was kindness and accommodation, and thought was put aside. Once thought started - and debate, including in our own minds - the ideology has no chance at all.

@Shortshriftandlethal there was this absolutely classic clip I saw on twitter the other day where some transwoman was wearily explaining about all the things JKR COULD have done with her money and how sad it was that she didn't use her money that way.

It was so funny. I kept waiting for the interviewer to say - "do you feel that other rich famous people who put money into causses they believe in shold only do so if you agree with those causes" but of course, it was not asked.

I never literally believed in it, but I've definitely been on a journey.

It's strange to me that, now I'm older, people often assume I'm some sort of provincial social conservative. Maybe I just have the wrong accent. But when I was young, I was the one who friends at school would come out to, because they knew I really didn't care one way or the other - if I valued them it was because of their personalities and not who they fancied.

And then for quite a while I was very left wing and heavily integrated into the activist scene where it was very very important to embrace minorities. So I knew a few gay transvestites who were clear they were men, and then later a few homosexual transsexuals. I didn't see them as literally women, but I assumed (maybe I was right at the time) that we all tacitly agreed on it as a polite pretence. And they were nice and seemed vulnerable, and I wanted society to treat them better.

I think my rough view was that I didn't really understand transsexualism, but it was easy to understand someone being uncomfortable with their sexed body particularly during adolescence, and wishing they were the opposite sex (I'm glad gender identity and transitioning was never presented as an option when I was in my teens), and for some mysterious reason, there was a very small number of people for whom the discomfort was so intense and persistent that they would subject themselves to radical surgeries so they could feel comfortable in their own skin.

So no, I didn't literally believe in it, but I wanted to be kind.

And then, I suppose it was the Vancouver Rape Relief story that was the first red flag for me, but I filed that away, and Michfest, and eventually I couldn't just keep filing the stories away any more.

And, I think this is very important, for a long time I'd never met any AGPs. Once I had, I couldn't unsee them. And, once we had the trans umbrella, it was probably obvious that they would take over the whole scene.

I might be going off on a tangent now but I used to post the odd thing on FB. One day a swedish acquaintance of mine got into a spat with me. I was surprised because she was always posting about the patriarchy and sexism in the Arab world and so on.
She started off by patronisingly saying she was disappointed and when did I become a closed minded bigot? She then went on to post endless links to 'scientific studies' that proved science has evolved and transwomen are women..probably the same nonsense that gets posted on here (I didn't read it but I may still have it).
She finished off by quoting Simone de Beauvoir 'one is not born, but rather made a woman' as proof that TWAW and have always been. It's also weird that it's the same women who proudly call themselves feminists, that are spouting the usual TRA lines.

I thought they were harmless so indulged their fantasy.
I thought no-one would go to "all that effort" just to get into women's spaces.
I thought they "just wanted to pee"
I was being kind.

I've worked mainly in the public sector so have encountered a fair few MtF and FtM over the years and I felt a bit sorry for them and how it must be horrible to be "born in the wrong body". If I thought about Trans people at all I probably thought of the high profile ones like Chas Bono, C Jenner or the historian A Neusbachner (Sp) who seem to make an effort to pass.

Then I started to see more like F Maloney and F Wallace, horrible parodies of women with pantomime dame hair and make up, mini-skirts and fishnets and thought "Hmmm, most actual women don't go around like that".

I can't say one thing peaked me, but like many, I gradually came to realise that the emperor was naked and it wasn't a pretty sight.

Edited to add, having read @FunMustard 's post below mine, I realise that

It was finding out that male crimes were being recorded under female categories that fully TERFed me.

This, It was before Adam Graham and his pink leggings but I think I may have read something about TW in women's prisons and thought "WTF".

I remember having a conversation with a (male) friend of mine at work. A new person had recently started in my area, two grades above me, who was a trans woman. They had the same name as me.

I remember saying that I felt really sorry for her, it must be totally awful to feel like you're in the wrong body. I also remember at around this time there was a documentary with a woman with twin boys, one of whom had decided he was a girl. As a parent of similar age twin boys, I found it devastating.

So I started from a place of full acceptance, maybe some pity and basically being happy to accept their version of things.

Ironically, it was this male friend, who was younger than me, straight, no kids (so no skin the game so to speak rather than doesn't care!) who basically asked me why I thought that a man could ever feel the same as me, a woman who'd had children and had all the associated medical bits and pieces.

That's where I started, I went through a lot of "live and let live" type feelings - it was ultimately 2018 when Kellie-Jay Keen put up the Adult Human Female sign in Liverpool that I really started to consider maybe, just maybe, it wasn't all completely innocent and just "people wanting to exist".

It was finding out that male crimes were being recorded under female categories that fully TERFed me. I remember someone posted something here, and me basically posting a "hang on, what the actual FUCK?!" sort of post.

Now I am angry. I am ten years older, so now I'm in my 40s so less likely to want to appease anyway, but while I am horrified at the actual realities, I have very little patience for grown adults that believe that TWAW and that it's just about "wanting to pee".

Phew, that was cathartic!

I remember the mother of a school friend of mine DMing me on Facebook, saying it appeared I was very anti-trans and was that right? I was astonished. This was a woman who campaigned a LOT for women's spaces in the 70s and 80s - she was even Woman's Officer (or the equivalent) for the local council for quite a while.

I just said, I'm not, I'm pro-women, I don't believe males can be females and left it there. But I was genuinely shocked.

Nope. Not for one nano-second. I always knew it was complete nonsense.
Then I was accused by a friend who has a trans m-f, of being transphobic. When I was nothing other than sympathetic to mum's situation, that was the end for me.

You know what, now I've read some other posts and had a think, I never really believed that a person could change sex, but I was willing to believe that people could "feel like" the opposite sex. I've always believed (and known) that sexuality was innate, so I'm not sure why I thought a person could literally feel like the other sex when how could they?! The literally would never have the experiences required, let alone the physical attributes!

I'm baffled by myself tbh. I can only think that as a woman, I was so used to "being nice" and capitulating, that it just felt natural.

Trust, I've beaten that out of myself now!

This is a mighty fine thread and I’m finding the answers really interesting. I’ve recently set one of my friends on the road to GC discovery, can’t wait to see what she’s got to say next time I see her (having never discussed it until the SC ruling!)

@StormyPotatoes motherhood also radicalised me in the same ways as you and more.

Pregnancy, birth and nursing were so much more physical and biological than I was expecting. It made me respect and admire the female sex and being female, whereas before my experience of female biology was almost entirely negative compared to males - nothing positive about periods, having boobs that rivalled the prow of the titanic and getting unwelcome male attention.

I met a lot of wonderful women as a result - having studied and worked in mainly male dominated topics and industries I didn't have as many female friends as I do now. I don't know why I found female friendships so hard as a younger woman but developing them later on has been a great joy.

I realised that my babies were very definitely one sex or another and how much sexist shit was heaped upon them by society from day one. I remember supporting let toys be toys right here on MN! So the concept of "gender" quickly came into focus as a pile of sexist sterotypical bullshit from the day I had DS1.

And finally, I don't think I really truly believed in the patriarchy until I had DS1 and flew into it like a bird flying into a glass french window. It was always there, I just somehow thought the battles had been won! Girls can do anything, as a mid/late 90s teen girl and then into the workplace in the mid 00s, it was all girl power and equality and girl bosses etc. Then I got pregnant and the scales fell from my eyes.

I never imagined anyone would mean it literally, ie biologically - I thought it was just something you said to avoid upsetting a vulnerable and benign group of people (inasmuch as I'd thought about the issue at all). It wasn't until JK Rowling tweeted about it that I started to look into the issue further.

I originally approached this from a position of “be kind”.

I was talking to my then toddler about gender and I found myself saying that some women had a penis. In my head I had a wtf moment and couldn’t figure out how to ‘be kind’ while also not wanting to lie about reality.

Saw friends posting in support of Danielle Muscato and was curious if they actually believed this person to be a woman simply by declaring it.

Started reading mumsnet FWR board to try to understand more about how to talk about gender. And then learned very quickly that ‘be kind’ could cause lots of issues for many people.

Started watching Magdalen Berns videos and listening to Lisa Muggeridge about safeguarding. Read Rebecca Reilly-Cooper’s ‘Gender is Not a Spectrum’ and things started becoming a lot clearer in my head. Read more about the situation in Canada with Yaniv and male sex offenders in women’s prisons. Became angrier about the treatment of vulnerable women.

Went to the first For Women Scotland meeting on my own and walked nervously past protesters outside mindlessly chanting TWAW slogans. Wondered why it was hateful to discuss proposed changes in legislation

Became more curious why people were scared to have a conversation about this. Realised I worked for an organisation intolerant of anything other than TWAW. Spoke up where I felt I could. Kept my mouth shut more times than I wish I had done. Donated whenever I could. Read, shared, lost some ‘friends’.

I still approach this from a position of ‘be kind’ but now I realise lying to vulnerable people that they can actually change their sex is the opposite of kind.

A mixture of "playing along" and "too scared to think about it". Im not hugely into politics but like others, I've always considered myself "left wing" and inclusive.

I remember in a pub a couple of years ago with a group of work colleagues, a very progressive friend was vocal about JKR being a bigot/anti trans. I just nodded along mindlessly agreeing because... well, who wants to be seen as siding with a biggot? One of the men asked, "what was it she actually said?" And when she told him, he responded "I mean... that's a valid opinion." And the conversation moved on

What's so striking is that the so called progressives are allowed to be so loud and entitled about their opinions, and it's pro women people like me who are shamed. I still haven't spoken to anyone other than my partner and you lot on mumsnet about my true feelings and am dreading the day someone speaks to me about it IRL because I'm genuinely worried of what they will think of me.

I have never believed in gender identity and I never will. It's beyond logic, science, rational. I read about gender dysphoria as a mental disorder and I believe it can be hard to live with, and I have compassion for those who are plagued by it.

When one of my dd's said that a trans woman is a woman, my brain executed a Tsukahara pike, short circuited and died for few seconds. I couldn't even speak. She was a student, high IQ, very smart and well read....I couldn't understand how was she able to say that and believe it?! I think it was more because of the social entourage, but still, shocking!. She came around, but still cannot explain how did she get to THAT conclusion and belief

As a society we only normalised the perverts. They are the ones worried about not having access to women's spaces. Also every failed sportsman can chase glory and recognition in women's sports. How can some people agree with this it is beyond my understanding. Promoting the ideology in schools is scandalous, some of the books shouldn't be near a child, and still, I see women agreeing with the whole process. How?!

I never believed it, because after about 30 seconds of critical thinking it's glaringly obvious that TWAW is impossible horseshit.

You can't feel like anything except what you are, because you're still a male, feeling like a male who believes he feels like a woman.

In truth, Shania Twain should probably take some of the blame for this mess.

Never believed TWAW.

used to teach gender topic as part of A level psychology so was already aware of gender dysphoria. I accepted that soms
people had gender dysphoria and that transitioning might be the best treatment if nothing else had worked to help them cope. But I never believed that they actually became women.
really started following the issue online from 2016 and was shocked people actually believed people could change sex.

I started off very accepting of transwomen and trans men and conseiderd myself respectful towards them. but it was the puberty blockers and sports issue that made me more vocal in opposition.

my beliefs are just the same today really as they were in 2016. I still believe that for a minority, transitioning might be the best treatment but only after much therapy and deserve respect and kindness. However, I think a significant amount are just confused, misguided lesbians/ gender non - conforming girls (who I also feel sorry for) and some of the men are just AGP (who I don’t feel sorry for at all).

I was young and open minded and grew up seeing the world open up and accept gay people, and I accepted the idea that "hormones in the womb, female brain in a male body" meant trans people were born to be trans like gay people are born to be gay (I'm more flexible about that now as well, but at the time right thinking people accepted that being born gay was the counter to claims that homosexuality was just a lifestype choice)

And I thought that drag queens and trans women showing how "female" interests and presentation could be done by men would lessen the stereotypes about women

And I was a feminist who didn't believe that men and women think that differently underneath and most of the differences in our interests and abiliities just come down to opportunity and encouragement

And then I realised that one of those things was not like the others, and since I believe number 3 very strongly I could not also believe number 1.

Number 2 was a bust altogether :(

I don’t think any of those options quite fit. I think it’s more that I never actually believed TWAW but also believed live and let live - and I genuinely didn’t realise some people thought TWAW REALLY were women. Also just my personal situation that a lot of the crazy stuff was happening when I was having my babies, and I wasn’t really paying much attention. I’ve never been on twitter/X much either.
I think the one that fits best is probably afraid to think about it but I think didn’t think about it is more accurate for me

I think I have to echo others about being radicalised Mumsnet! 😅

I came on here after getting pregnant, and ended up on the feminism boards. When people kept listing there the stuff that TRAs say 'never happens' (male rapists identifying their way into female prisons and assaulting women, male sex offenders being described as women in the press), and the TRA attitude of "transwomen are women, it doesn't matter if they have a penis, lesbians are bigots/perverts if they don't accept that"... well, sympathy starts to wear a bit thin.

There's also the horrifying abuse of JK Rowling. I admit there's part of me that thinks that sometimes she pushes it a bit far, but given the abuse she got after her initial very measured, intelligent essay on why biological sex is a reality and important... I can't say that I blame her. It's not just people vocally disagreeing with her, it's the vitriolic - and often misogynistic - shit that's thrown her way.

I cannot say any of this IRL, as I would lose my job, and most of my friends. I can't share photos of visiting the Harry Potter Tour, or talk about reading the book to my son.

Don't you wonder about your friends that would disown you for it?
I do understand about your job of course, but doesn't that make your friends controlling and actually not friends at all?