Reasons you once believed in gender identity

[Mermoose]

Edit: damnit I should have included "Never believed TWAW" in the poll. Sorry. There doesn't seem a way of editing the poll.

I read Victoria Smith's brilliant Substack "More Heat, More Light", which is about the impossible restrictions put on GC women's expression, but also about her journey from agreeing outwardly that TWAW, to consciously recognising that she didn't believe this. Fear and guilt stopped her from realising this earlier.

When I thought I believed TWAW it was also because I was afraid to think about it. I'd internalised the propaganda that there was something cruel and prurient in asking questions. "Why are you obsessed with other people's genitals" was quite effective for a while. (Of course sex is politically salient precisely because sex affects our entire bodies).

Some people never believed TWAW, I know. But for those of us who once did - or who believed we believed it, if that fits better - was it fear and guilt stopping you from really thinking about it, or was it that you did think about it and had what seemed like well-thought-out arguments? And if you had arguments that seemed sound at one time, what were they?

For people who still believe TWAW I think there are a lot of other threads where you can put forward arguments for this, so I'd like this thread just to be about people who did believe TWAW and have since changed their minds.

I’d say none of those. I was in an intersectional women’s group on FB and I got to meet a trans woman who I really liked and of course the mantra of TWAW was never questioned by me. Honestly. Ridiculous now nothing about it. He used to write stories and it was often SM or sexually deviant stuff. All the women in the group were sending him money as he was obviously skint (shilling for donations)
Then one day he posted a meme of something along the lines of a picture of a young woman (as a cartoon) being choked with the lines I like it when you choke me. And suddenly I mentally acknowledged, only a dude would post this. This is a bloody man. Ergo TWAM. And I was insta angry. Like inflamed. And I was ejected from the group for saying something. It was like I’d been in a weird trance. So actually now I write it it was classic #bekind behaviour. Awful. I am ashamed. Thank goodness I woke up.

I also never believed it. I was, however, accommodating - then they took the entire piss and I thought “FOTTFSOF”

When you say you were in a weird trance - I look back and think this too. I knew a TW, and was happily going along with it. But I still think the fog in my brain was a fear of thinking about it. Like it wasn't any of my business. And it's very strange because that's just not me at all, I tend to need to understand things and it bothers me if I don't.

I only knew nice but seemingly quite vulnerable transwomen.
I prided myself on being open minded and bringing my children up to be caring open minded people.
I'd read the glossy articles by mermaids about boys who grew up feeling that they were girls from a young age and I assumed the right thing to do with these very rare children was to get them help so that they might pass, as adults.
I didn't realise people thought TW were women but I thought we all were joining in with a polite pretence and that we all knew that and TW knew that.

What changed? It started with Germaine Greer, "I don't care" I thought it was harsh, given my first point but I was curious.

I heard the term TWAW for the first time and I thought hang on! I'm never going to be able to make my brain do all the mental hoops to believe that.

My eldest reached his mid teens and suddenly I was aware that lots of girls around us were claiming they were trans boys. Something seemed off about that and these girls in general were not happy, thriving teenagers.

The vulnerable TW I speak of in my first point seemed to be getting more and more angry at accidentally being misgendered. They no longer seemed quite so vulnerable with these displays of righteous anger.

But mainly it was the teens. Sending teenagers off down a route that swallowed up a lot of their teen years with so much navel gazing and ultimately could lead to life changing consequences is unforgivable.

This will be an interesting thread........to be able to get inside the rationale or lack of it that encouraged people to accept trans ideology.

Personally, I've never bought into it, and my first response on becoming aware of it was to feel deeply offended and angry, especially when I found out that lots of people, including the Labour Party, had signed up wholesale and were making threats of censure.

I was fully into 'be kind'. I guess I never really stopped to dissect the arguments being made, I just thought that would be unkind, and even questioning it felt wrong. Of course that's intentional because the arguments often fall apart once you do start to look more closely.

I didn’t believe TWAW, but I figured it didn’t matter. I didn’t feel ‘like a woman’ so bought the ‘all on a spectrum’ stuff and believed we could all do what we wanted and just get along.

Then I had a daughter, and my eyes opened (mainly on here), and realised that although I still think presentation should be a free for all, it’s just personality, we don’t need to label it ‘gender’, and it’s separate from sex, where the line is very clear and that’s more important.

I always assumed it was a polite fiction and that nobody actually believed it was literally true.

I also assumed it was reasonable for those men (who I assumed really, really needed to because of their medical condition) should use women’s spaces. I wasn’t that bothered and I hadn’t considered the women that would negatively affect. The idea didn’t bother me, until that is, I saw some of the kind of men that were now demanding access. Like many others, I was thinking Hayley from Corrie and not Aimee Challenor or Heather Herbert.

I did believe it was true that some people genuinely felt like they were the opposite sex and that transition was the appropriate treatment, because the NHS and the BBC told us that, on children’s TV.

It didn’t cross my mind to question how a man could genuinely feel like he was a woman, or how he could possibly know. I suspect many, like me, hadn’t thought about it much and had transactivists campaigned to ensure that scenario was the one that should become the norm, I have no doubt they could have pushed it through without significant opposition.

I liked toying with the postmodern idea that words are made up by people and so only mean what people agree they mean, so meanings are constantly changing. Also that the word is just a representation of the thing - not the thing itself. That the actual ‘real’ thing - reality- is always somewhere beyond reach - beyond description or comprehension. I understood this in cultural contexts, regarding nationalistic sentiments, claims of cultural purity etc which I didn’t and still don’t buy into. I thought ‘well if it’s true of culture, then why not of gender, and why not of sex’. I didn’t think about it much further than that because I genuinely believed it didn’t matter much in any case if a few men thought they were really women so why spend too much brain power thinking about it. A few things started to change my mind. One of the first was the Canadian ‘rats nailed to the door’ rape crisis case, and the beauticians/waxing guy going after those poor women. I also realised the implications for kids - I noticed parents starting to push kids more and more into gender stereotypical behaviour as if they were scared that someone might remark that maybe their child was possibly in the wrong body. That’s when I revisited my postmodern studies and woke up to the implications of these academic thought experiments on real women and children. That’s when I realised it wasn’t a game and that to let men, even just a few, try to redefine the word ‘woman’ to include men, was actually very dangerous. That agreeing what words mean and defending those meanings is extremely important in this case. That women must never give up the words that unite us as women because if we do that we give up our key source of power - that is that we can talk to each other as women and share information to help each other as women. And that this is especially important for the most vulnerable amongst us - like rape victims and those beautician women in Canada for a start.

I only ever 'believed in gender identity' inasmuch I believed the anorexics I knew really did have a 'feeling' that was causing them to starve themselves and believed that the schizophrenic person I knew really did hear the devil that was speaking out of the smoke they could see.

I know the mentally ill can have feelings sane people don't have. I cannot imagine what 'having a gender' feels like. I don't think running your society to support the delusions of the unwell is good for anyone.

I wonder if that trance-like state is related to “fawn” in fight/flight/fawn. I realize you probably weren’t afraid, per se, but you want to make sure the stranger feels welcome and that nobody is being unreasonably discriminatory. The big lie of course being, that this was not a different kind of woman (who ought to be welcomed) but a man, who shouldn’t. These are complex feelings and situations.

I ticked seemingly good arguments but tbh I didn't give it much in depth thought. The transwoman I knew was elderly, nice, non aggressive, proud and honest about her journey as a transwoman and I don't even think she used women's spaces.

I got all my news from BBC and Guardian. I actually remember agreeing with Trump when he originally said transwomen should be allowed in women's "bathrooms" back before he saw which way the wind was blowing! I assumed all transwomen had had their dicks removed like my colleague.

I was persuaded by the "intersex is actually really common" argument but didn't look into it.

I'd watched an explicit film about bottom surgery for transmen back in the early 00s. They showed putting plastic rods inside to achieve erection. But as I'd met several transwomen and no transmen I assumed they were super rare.

I never believed it but I was prepared to live and let live until I became aware of harms being caused to women and children by access to single sex spaces. I peaked very quickly.

I, truthfully, never did. But then my first experience of meeting someone who was trans identified I was very very young. And it was plainly obvious to me then that he was a man, and remained so after surgery. At that stage, I was obviously polite and given my age, it never entered my head to refer to him as anything other than his chosen name and pronouns etc. It wasn’t a “thing” back then as such (early 90s). I met another in my teens through our social scene who, again, it was plainly obvious was a man and not one of us seriously countenanced the idea that he was really a woman all along. He was lecherous and awful before he announced he was a woman and remained so after the fact.
As an adult, I didn’t really start forming cohesive thoughts around it until I saw the swathes of teenagers starting to identify out of their sex. Perhaps it’s because my own kids are quite “alt” and so were the crowds they ran in, so a higher incidence of their peers announced themselves to be trans than might be typical of a group of teens. But it became clear to me this was a social contagion, made up mostly of the misfits, ND kids, kids who were already struggling with their mental health. Except this wasn’t something harmless, these children were not happy in their “new identities”, they became obsessed with the idea that they were hated, or constantly persecuted and misgendered, which, obviously if you believe that about yourself, is going to negatively impact your mental health anyway. I saw their relationships with parents break down, parents who knew it was all bollocks, yet who were ignored at every turn. Honestly, for a lot of those young people, the singular turning point leading to their announcement was a visit from an LGBT youth group to the school. It was billed as personal/sexual education but it absolutely was not that.
So from then on my spidey senses were tingling.
I’ve never believed any trans person was “born in the wrong body”. I think for the small minority who experience genuine distress, it’s not distress at their sex and they’ve latched onto that as a hyper fixation. I think for most trans identified men, it’s a fetish. And those who I have met and know bear that out.

Entirely 'be kind' brigade until I engaged in some MN debates.

I hadn't really been aware of the wider implications and how far reaching that has been. I started getting frustrated by the militancy of some trans voices online.

Oh god what a horrible experience.

Do you know the grifting for funds thing is pretty common in certain sectors. I know of even sympathetic trans allies who are sick of it.

When I did twitter I followed lots of transwomen most of whom were not sex denialists. Most really did seem ok but I remember seeing a "choke on my dick" comment from one and I was like No. Fuck off. Done.

None of those really apply. I just didn’t really think about it in any depth and I think knew they weren’t actual women, but “be kind” and “TWAW” seemed to be the mantra so I went along with it because I’m a decent person.
I didn’t even care if they went in the same loo. It was only when I started reading more about it that I realised why it could bother other women and I didn’t have the right to throw their rights away.
Once I started down the GC rabbit hole I learned so much and now I’m firmly GC (and yet I’m still a decent and kind person funnily enough!)

I never believed it. It reminded me too much of the nonsensical, irrational fog that stopped me joining left wing groups in the 70s - I could never work out why wanting justice in society requires you to park your brain in the cellar. I still don't. But in order to see the results of the poll upthread, you have to answer it, I think. I can't.

I was a teacher and mother of 2 teens who were fully onboard with the trans acceptance. Increasing numbers of ‘trans’ kids at school who I felt sympathy for and liked very much. I oversaw the school’s diversity & inclusion working party and didn’t question their approach which seemed - well… inclusive. At the same time I was not fully on board with adult TWAW arguments but was shouted down by my dds . I also couldn’t get onboard with all the JKR hatred as I couldn’t believe someone whose values seem to align with mine would feel so strongly without good reason.

I started discussing it with a few feminist teacher friends (almost in whispers as it felt so subversive and ‘right wing’) and the scales started falling away. Engaged then with the mumsnet forums, the podcasts about the Tavistock and Witch Trials of JKR and now I’m fully GC.

Had a pre- and post- transition colleague around 2004-12. He ignored and tended to belittle me before transition, afterwards was all over me for companionship in some slightly frosty work environments. Went along with it until a performative show of lipstick application in the ladies loos when I realised that I and my presence was a required element of the process (I don’t wear makeup, skirts or anything traditionally feminine myself so remember feeling like an awkward
stage prop). Felt so angry and tricked, afterwards….then found FWR

I used to believe that TWAW meant that while we all knew they were men, there was a consensus among nice people to pretend that they weren't with the understanding that we all knew it was a pretence. In short, a #bekind approach.

What radicalised me out of this was the trans umbrella appearing and including a lot of foul people whose approach was #beasunkindtowomenaspossible.

I never was on board with the medical treatments.

I don't think I've ever really understood what TWAW is supposed to mean outside of a shared pretence. The only other meanings I can think of suggest that those who hold them are delusional.

I believed trans people were vulnerable and marginalised and I felt I would try to use preferred pronouns etc if it made them happy. A polite fiction. Never believed TWAW or TMAM for one second. I believed in gender dysphoria (or sex dysphoria) and I still do. I was shocked though when I discovered militant trans activists were actually extremely powerful, not vulnerable or marginalised but actually had the establishment on side. They were bullying women, making death threats, rape threats etc with seemingly no consequences and that caused me to harden my stance.

I think women are natural allies to gender nonconforming men. Women looked after gay men during the AIDS crisis, for example. Unfortunately TW have alienated many potential allies with their insistence that they are literally women. If TW could have said ok, we want to dress in women’s clothes, we want to present ourselves in a feminine way, we have dysphoria about our male bodies, then I’d have been a staunch ally. But no. They didn’t want trans rights,
they wanted women’s rights too.

If I don’t want male people in women’s sports, prisons, rape crisis centres, all-female shortlists etc, then I can’t be on the side of anyone who says TWAW.

Same here. Happened very recently. I work in HR and was disturbed by Maya Forstater s treatment as it seemed self evident to me that sex is binary. Couldn't believe people seriously questioned that. Still thought they might be a minority though. Then I followed the Sandie Peggie case and was completely horrified how far this idiocy had spread.

Never believed it as such, but used to think it was a polite fiction for a small number of troubled souls who had gone to great efforts to "transition". I'd heard the phrase "sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears", and as I've always been happy to be female, I sort of nodded along, thinking how awful it would be for me to wake up in a male body, and how good it was that my gender and sex therefore "matched". I remember also reading about the new shortening "trans*" which included transsexual, transvestite and all things in-between, and thinking "hmm, seems a bit much, but hey, not my circus".

Five or six years ago, a couple of older relatives started to raise concerns about the issue, and I'm ashamed to admit I thought they were making an unseemly fuss and should pipe down and stop embarrassing themselves.

Then I woke up and saw what was happening. Out there in the world (e.g. Maya), the experiences of trans widows (massive eye-opener) and Tumblr-induced ROGD in my circles.

My early experience was with transvestites, who never expected to be called women, although their ‘character’ might have a feminine name, sometimes talked about in the third person.

Then I met some trans-identifying males who were obviously mentally unwell so presumed that gender dysphoria was a mental illness, then I found out about agp and a lot of things fell into place. The trans- identifying males I meet now are all the latter, sickening to see them trying to latch on to lesbian groups.