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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

RECLAIM THE FRAMING OF UK TRANS RIGHTS

29 replies

Gabcsika · 24/04/2025 09:57

As expected trans activists next step is to try and word-saladify the SC ruling and by "reframing" the words of the equalities a t (isnt that what they tried to do until now).

Once again the advise being given seems to be to go "beyond" the law once again.

The post from Facebook is being shared around on many activist forums so it is apparent that the fight for women's rights against more word salad continues.

Text follows below, I leave it here for you vipers to pick apart and also as a heads up for their next tactics. You can find the Facebook post by copying and pasting the heading into Facebook:

RECLAIM THE FRAMING OF UK TRANS RIGHTS

After the UK Supreme Court ruling, we need to be sharing accurate information.

Transphobic people are framing the results in a particular way, and we need to frame it with the truth. If we fight within their framing, we are reinforcing their framing.

Although I have a trans-related job, I spoke to three international human rights lawyers in my capacity purely as a private citizen, and this document lays out my takeaways. I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice!

I am hoping this equips all trans people and all people who are in support of trans people’s rights to be emboldened to continue to fight for what is right.

--A ruling is one thing, but it must then be translated into policy.

Policies (and their interpretation) is where organisations can be in solidarity with trans people, and where the ruling will, I expect, prove unworkable in practice. As detailed below, organisations can continue to be inclusive, and even if not, an individual who violates a policy is not committing a criminal offence.

The ruling can also be challenged both inside the UK court system and via the European Court of Human Rights, but that’s outside of the scope of what I’m hoping to do here which is give as clear a picture as I can find of where we are at.

--Trans people are not committing any crime by existing in public.

We are free, and in fact still protected by the Equality Act, to live our lives - do our jobs, enter businesses and public spaces, use the toilet that is appropriate for us, get healthcare appropriate to our gender. The ruling has not changed any of this.

--Organisations are free to continue to create trans-inclusive policies.

These may be challenged in the courts down the line by cis women, if they feel their rights under the Equality Act are being infringed, but that would need to proven on a case-by-case basis, and would be a legal challenge to the organisation, not to any individual.

--Organisations are not obliged to exclude trans women or any trans people.

If an organisation does decide to create a space only for cis women, a trans woman is personally not committing a crime by continuing to access that space (ie toilets/bathrooms).

If you are somehow prevented from accessing those spaces, you could still bring a legal challenge under the protections of the Equality Act.

Taken to the extreme, if an organisation, for example, wanted to create the strictest bathroom policy possible, they would need to have security staff on the doors of the women’s bathrooms, have everyone undergo a genital check and/or have their birth certificate on them.

This is plainly ridiculous and a direction we don’t want to go in as a society, one of having to have our papers on us.

Even then, trans people are protected against discrimination by the Equality Act.

In practice, trans-exclusionary policies will likely affect gender-nonconforming cis women, particularly cis women who are perceived as more ‘masculine presenting’, or who don’t fit the white cis norms of ‘femininity’. It may be those women who need to bring cases that their rights under the Equality Act are being infringed in order to show how unworkable this all is.

--You have no obligation to answer any questions about your gender or sex by a private individual.

If someone challenges your presence in a single-sex space, you are legally within your rights to just ignore their questions, or, indeed answer them, and continue about your business.

In broad strokes, no private citizen has the right to detain you if you have not committed a crime*. Merely entering a single-sex designated space is not a crime.

You can walk away from any situation that doesn’t yet involve the police.

(I’ll let people who are more informed about interacting with the police detail what is and isn’t allowed in those situations.)

*There is some nuance around the ability to detain someone, but it doesn't apply to what we're discussing here. It is not a crime to violate a policy.

--You are not legally required to disclose any information in a healthcare setting.

For example, it's not a crime to not disclose your gender/birth sex to a healthcare provider, or to refuse to give more information than you are comfortable giving. (Of course, this information may be medically relevant sometimes, but it is not legally required.)

If you are, for example, placed in a gendered ward that does not match your gender, you can challenge that decision - trans people still have a right to safety, dignity and privacy under the Equality Act.

--There are a tiny amount of places where it would be legal to be trans-exclusionary:

  1. Cis women-only informal private groups (book clubs, nights out). This has always been the case, as they don't fall under the Equality Act.

Though: (a) it’s unclear how this would be enforced in a way that doesn’t exclude or place a burden on gender-nonconforming cis women and (b) as a trans woman you would still not be committing a crime by attending.

  1. Cis women only shelters - if it can be proved that this is legitimate and proportionate.

Again, this has always been the case. Many women’s shelters have inclusive policies which they are still allowed to maintain – they are not obliged to exclude trans people.

Any trans person who is excluded from any service may bring a claim for discrimination in court.

The service provider would have to prove in their defence that:

a. the exclusion is legitimate because they are a genuine single or separate sex service provider (ie the service genuinely cannot be provided to both men & women)

AND

b. Proportionate - ie the presence of the trans person would make it genuinely impossible to provide the service.

Any service provider can bar any person from their service, so long as the bar is not because of a person’s protected characteristic (or it is because they are in the tiny minority of cases who are using an exemption provided in the Equality Act, as above).

I hope that’s useful, I’m wildly open to corrections from legal professionals.

Thanks for supporting me in producing this document over the Bank Holiday weekend go to my friends and colleagues:

Claire Mahon, Executive Director of Geneva-based Global Human Rights Group
Julia D. Rowland, Human Rights Officer, GHRG
Stephen Whittle, who has been working in human rights cases internationally for 35 years.

Let’s reclaim the narrative and keep living our lives.

Another world is possible.

OP posts:
Justme56 · 24/04/2025 10:25

I am not a lawyer so this is not legal advice!! He’s correct on that point!

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 24/04/2025 12:01

They aren't wrong that anyone could bring a claim for discrimination - but if it was found to be ground less it would be swiftly kicked out of court.

People don't seem to realise that being able to take something to court and actually winning a case are very different things.

They don't sound like they understand the 'legitimate and proportionate' test.

Hoardasurass · 24/04/2025 12:04

What a massive pile of tosh.
Any male entering a female only single sex facilitie is now at immediate risk of voyeurism charges (as they have no legitimate reason for being there), for a start. Shelters etc cannot be both female single sex and inclusive of transwomen.
Failing to provide single sex spaces where nesscary is sex discrimination.
Any transwomen excluded from a female single sex space has no right to sue as its the law that they must be excluded or its not single sex. There's no requirement to prove that it's reasonable to exclude transwomen specifically only men which the law classes transwomen as.
I'll let someone else deal with the rest as I'm to pissed off to do so right now

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 12:17

They know it is bollocks IMO, they’re just trying to spread misinformation to bamboozle service providers.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 24/04/2025 12:19

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 12:17

They know it is bollocks IMO, they’re just trying to spread misinformation to bamboozle service providers.

Indeed.

I think the best defence is to keep plugging the 'risk of legal challenge re sex discrimination' line.

Keep reminding them that women can and will take them to court for not discharging their responsibilities properly!

MassiveWordSalad · 24/04/2025 12:21

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 12:17

They know it is bollocks IMO, they’re just trying to spread misinformation to bamboozle service providers.

Plus ça change 🙄

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 12:22

So they're deliberately encouraging organisations to ignore the law then?

Bring on the next wave of litigation.

I wonder which of the three lawyers they consulted told them that a Supreme Court judgment can be challenged in the UK legal system.

AstonScrapingsNameChange · 24/04/2025 12:24

The take home message should be:

Get your legal advice from good lawyers, not self declared expert lobby groups.

outofdate · 24/04/2025 12:24

Hahahahaha good try guys!

nauticant · 24/04/2025 12:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 12:22

So they're deliberately encouraging organisations to ignore the law then?

Bring on the next wave of litigation.

I wonder which of the three lawyers they consulted told them that a Supreme Court judgment can be challenged in the UK legal system.

A: You are providing a single sex space for women aren't you?
B: Yes.
A: Well, there's a male person in there. Since it's a single sex space for women they should be told to leave. Will you ask them to leave?
B: I don't want to do that.
A: Right. Would you repeat that again while I'm recording so I can use this to bring a case against your organisation for discrimination under the Equality Act 2010?
B: Errr...

PerkyBlinder · 24/04/2025 12:32

I think both the cases involving nurses and the NHS should clear things up and remind organisations of their responsibilities to make changing rooms single sex.

Hopefully also the legal position is now much more clear cut and most organisations will not want to leave themselves open to that level of financial risk.

Also the suggestion above to push back against individual dissent to record any organisation not willing to protect women.

theilltemperedqueenofspacetime · 24/04/2025 12:45

Call me Manichean, but why is transland all confused, illogical, dishonest, and self-seeking?

While in GC land, in the last week, we've been having earnest conversations about whether there's scope to legalise single-gender spaces as a supplement to single-sex spaces (update: on reflection, fuck that shit)...

....and about how to continue to treat trans people with dignity (update: on reflection, you're on your own, sort yourselves out).

What about our rights and dignity? Germaine Greer was right about you lot, and she was right about why.

PS 'you lot' =/= trans people. Misogynists, that's who.

DragonRunor · 24/04/2025 12:53

Well, we know what happened last time organisations took their legal advice from activist groups….. This time there is even less excuse for not knowing the law - it’s been given enough publicity. Hopefully the legal penalties will ramp up until organisations take their protection of women’s rights seriously (as Sussex Uni found out)

thenoisiesttermagant · 24/04/2025 13:01

Hoardasurass · 24/04/2025 12:04

What a massive pile of tosh.
Any male entering a female only single sex facilitie is now at immediate risk of voyeurism charges (as they have no legitimate reason for being there), for a start. Shelters etc cannot be both female single sex and inclusive of transwomen.
Failing to provide single sex spaces where nesscary is sex discrimination.
Any transwomen excluded from a female single sex space has no right to sue as its the law that they must be excluded or its not single sex. There's no requirement to prove that it's reasonable to exclude transwomen specifically only men which the law classes transwomen as.
I'll let someone else deal with the rest as I'm to pissed off to do so right now

Voyeurism, flashing (if getting undressed) and sexual harassment, all of which are illegal.

IfYouPutASausageInItItsNotAViennetta · 24/04/2025 13:02

If you are, for example, placed in a gendered ward that does not match your gender, you can challenge that decision - trans people still have a right to safety, dignity and privacy under the Equality Act.

But women don't also have this same right? Aren't women's rights human rights?

I'm nearly 50, but can I demand those same rights and insist to be placed in a children's ward, if that's how I identify? No difference whatsoever in principle.

I'm also very interested to learn about how your healthcare needs 'according to your gender' would differ from your healthcare needs according to your biological sex? Is healthcare now fully 'woke' rather than based on clearly provable science?

Will a smear test be a valuable medical service for somebody who doesn't actually have a womb or a cervix, but who likes to think that they should have done?

Will it raise serious alarm bells if a prostate check reveals the frightening news that the medical professionals can't actually find your prostate anywhere at all?

thenoisiesttermagant · 24/04/2025 13:04

It's really making it clear that they don't want safe spaces for themselves as third spaces are possible, they want to use unconsenting women in women's space as props for their validation and trample all over the law and women's hard 'no'.

If they enter a woman's single-sex space they can never know that all the women in there consent, so they are deliberately trampling over women's boundaries, legal rights and ignoring consent.

Makes it crystal clear they don't care about women's rights at all.

Hoardasurass · 24/04/2025 13:45

DragonRunor · 24/04/2025 12:53

Well, we know what happened last time organisations took their legal advice from activist groups….. This time there is even less excuse for not knowing the law - it’s been given enough publicity. Hopefully the legal penalties will ramp up until organisations take their protection of women’s rights seriously (as Sussex Uni found out)

Well the EHRC is going after nhs fife,, nhs scotland and Neil gray and have said that they will use the full force of the law if they refuse to follow the law. As such I'm sure that seeing a msp and the entire Scottish health system taken to crt will clarify things in the eyes and minds of businesses service providers 😉

ViolasandViolets · 24/04/2025 13:49

Hoardasurass · 24/04/2025 12:04

What a massive pile of tosh.
Any male entering a female only single sex facilitie is now at immediate risk of voyeurism charges (as they have no legitimate reason for being there), for a start. Shelters etc cannot be both female single sex and inclusive of transwomen.
Failing to provide single sex spaces where nesscary is sex discrimination.
Any transwomen excluded from a female single sex space has no right to sue as its the law that they must be excluded or its not single sex. There's no requirement to prove that it's reasonable to exclude transwomen specifically only men which the law classes transwomen as.
I'll let someone else deal with the rest as I'm to pissed off to do so right now

Voyeurism would be tricky to prove in a toilet. Aggravated trespass on the other hand..

ViolasandViolets · 24/04/2025 13:51

If you are, for example, placed in a gendered ward

There is no ability in law to provide separate spaces based on gender.

potpourree · 24/04/2025 13:55

Transphobic people are framing the results in a particular way, and we need to frame it with the truth.

Ok... that would be a novelty, so I'm listening (once I've stopped laughing)...

Trans people are not committing any crime by existing in public

That's right, and you know full well no-one has said otherwise... so I guess that's truthful, but strongly implies a strawman...

have everyone undergo a genital check and/or have their birth certificate on them

Ah ok, that didn't last long then!

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 24/04/2025 13:57

What has struck me over and over again is how large portions of the public are so so desperate to fit in they have lost every ounce of common tense. Yes women are free to challenge men (however they identify) who use women’s bathrooms to protect their single sex space - but this is not “down the line” it has been done and our right to single sex spaces based on biological sex - not gender has been upheld.

it’s clear these woman haters want to create a threatening environment for businesses where they are scared to uphold the law

EastCoastDweller · 24/04/2025 14:27

So they have no interest in developing and arguing for proposals for third spaces (not disabled spaces) that cater for their needs. Or getting men to accept them in male spaces. Or getting proper medical and psychiatric care for all the young people whose bodies and lives have been destroyed. Or having their own sports.

There was a mixed sex facility at the Hampstead Ponds but they refused to use it. Insisting on using the women’s pond. The men refused to allow trans men into their pond. This tells me all I need to know about their good faith.

Hopefully no one with any sense is going to take them seriously as a source of credible advice again.

Justme56 · 24/04/2025 14:52

It’s not just employers who end up at tribunal though is it? Dr Upton is also a respondent in one ET and there is Rose in the Darlington nurses case who has had their photo splashed throughout the media.

PriOn1 · 24/04/2025 14:53

I’m so bored of them and all the utterly tedious HR bods on LinkedIn droning on about the same dross.

I really hope that there will be a few court cases, as suggested above, that sort all this crap out. Really I’m sick of women’s rights being violated.

Interesting, I was going to write ignored at the end of the last sentence. Predictive text suggested the much more appropriate violated.

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