Is it time to stop the pretence that people can transition?

[happydappy2]

I really feel gender ideology is a cult, that has totally warped some peoples minds. It brings so many problems to society I’m not sure it’s sustainable. It damages the health of young people, shortens their lives and often rips families apart. At what point do we say no, this is not healthy, it’s incredibly antisocial to expect everyone else to pretend you are the opposite sex when they can see you aren’t….for the good of society let’s stop this madness. Gender dysphoria exists yes but I don’t think we’re treating it in the best way. We don’t affirm that an anorexic patient is indeed too fat so why do we affirm people who think they are the opposite sex?

The motte and bailey fallacy does not apply here. It depends on having a controversial position that is difficult to defend. The claim that transwomen are not women is not a controversial claim and it is not difficult to defend.
I suspect the PP has been watching ContraPoints.

I think a better example is the one I was calling out on here.

The “motte” is the easily defensible position: “Is it transphobic to believe in two sexes?” Most people would agree that biological sex exists and comes in two forms, so it sounds reasonable and hard to argue with. That’s what I was asked in response to this thread calling trans people perverted fetishists.

But the “bailey” (the more controversial, harder-to-defend claim) is what was actually being said earlier in the thread which I called out: calling trans people fetishists and perverts. That is transphobic, harmful, and factually incorrect.

What happens in a Motte and Bailey fallacy is that when someone is challenged on their extreme or offensive view (the bailey), they retreat to a safer, less controversial statement (the motte) to defend themselves, pretending that’s all they ever meant.

It happened on this thread in real time. It is one of this forum’s most used tactics.

So, in this case, when I called out transphobia, they shifted the discussion to a seemingly neutral point about biological sex, which wasn’t the issue at hand. It’s a rhetorical bait-and-switch.

So, in this case, when I called out transphobia, they shifted the discussion to a seemingly neutral point about biological sex, which wasn’t the issue at hand. It’s a rhetorical bait-and-switch.
Who is "they"? The issue of the thread is the original post, and anything else is off topic.

Sone transpeople are perverts though and in that they show male pattern behaviour.

jfs only transphobia if the statement is covering all people with transgender identities and in that case please report and the posts will be deleted and a repeat offender will be escorted off site - and I guess any such statement has now been removed making it hard to follow

The OP, happydappy2 responded to my post calling out that it’s transphobic to call trans women mentally ill perverts (see beginning of thread) with ‘it transphobic to believe there are only 2 sexes?’ (Direct quote).

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a clearer Motte and Bailey argument.

There’s a difference between: some trans people are perverts
and
being trans makes people perverts (what was being said here). It implies that the act of being trans is inherently a sexual and perverted act. Which is untrue.

I’d argue that focussing intensely on the first one still shows you have deeply engrained biases against trans people, but the second one is clearly inherently transphobic.

I’ve reported many transphobic posts in my time which clearly cross the line from ‘debate’ into offensive comments about an entire community, and mumsnet has never done anything. Their bias is also blinding.

It will sound like a frivolous point to make, but I have a theory that #Pinkification has had no small part to play in this.

There was less contrast between boys' and girls' clothes and toys in the 1970s and 1980s. Toys when I was a kid came in bright, primary colours. The boys' aisles in the toy stores still look like this, but the girls' ones all boast sickly, pastel shades and resemble an explosion in a sugared almond factory.

Lots of girls when I was at school had short hair. Some boys had long hair. There were fewer 'sexy' clothes for young girls, or captions exhorting girls to be kind and boys to be strong. And since the gendered schism has widened in sales and marketing terms, an explosion in 'gender questioning' has occurred.

It's complex, and I doubt that it's the only factor, but I don't somehow think this is a coincidence. This is why I never made a rigid distinction between boys' toys and girls' toys: if my boy wanted to play with a pram, or wear an Elsa dress or enjoy films about Disney princesses, that's no issue for me. He loves Star Wars and gaming too, gives no shits about what 'gender' a toy or activity is supposed to be for, and knows fine well he's a boy.

Some parents might have 'transed' him on that kind of ridiculous basis. It makes my blood run cold.

I think "they" is me, and I was 100% replying based on the overall topic of the post.

As my posting history will show I rarely get into the fetish side or even the "but what is a woman really?" side because I don't need to, and because I genuinely believe the proportion of male fetishists has gone down as the proportion of trans identifying males who are young and autistic has gone up. (I do however worry that those men are at risk of sexual predators and going on to develop maladaptive sexual personae because of it)

My core argument has always been that whatever may or may not be going on in a trans woman's mind, people with female bodies still exist and still face material social and physical disadvantages and risks because of their bodies, and any movement that does not allow this difference to be acknowledged and named as separate to whatever trans women experience, and does not allow female people to have support, spaces and opportunities that do not have to be opened up to men who believe they "feel like women" is not an honest good faith movement.

I really only mention the fetish side when responding to claims it is a very small group or it doesn't exist at all.

The assertion that transitioning turns a male person into a person who can be treated as socially female to the degree that he is allowed to be in spaces or perform activities that are otherwise reserved for the physically female is clearly nonsense. It relies on nothing more than an obfuscation of two different meanings for the word Woman, and it is well past time we gave up this sexist bullying of women to accept it.

Or you know, you could just be wrong in what you interpret as transphobic?

My view too.

Lets deal with gender stereotypes.

Also, we need to deal with toxic masculinity. The whole transgender debate would look very different if some men didn't attack women (and men who don't conform to what they think they should conform to).

It wasn’t, it was happydappy2.

I find it fascinating that someone can argue that gender dysphoria is real and provable and quotes organisations who claim diagnoses of said dysphoria are irrelevant as people are who they say they are!

Also, that trans can't be defined other than by those who are trans. And a woman is anyone who feels like a woman. So why do these men claim to be transwomen and not just go straight to women? If everything is a feeling, then why make it more complicated for themselves? BUT, if a man does claim to be a woman, does that make him transphobic as he's skipping the trans?

It's so complicated!

Here is a really excellent article by a British psychologist with 30 years experience. "Why ‘Gender Dysphoria’ is a lie"
https://x.com/psychgirl211/status/1808825717204922755?s=46&t=X5IvnzbB1RShesDkx_0lAw

If it's so complex that I am unable to get it, after three years of listening to every viewpoint I can find, then it is utterly unreasonable to expect me to change my worldview and behaviour to fit into it. I am not thick, and nor are the many women who have argued coherently here for a sensible model of sex and gender. That sensible model doesn't deny physical reality, it doesn't encourage attempts to change physical reality, it doesn't encourage unethical and damaging medical and surgical practices, it takes proper consideration of safeguarding ...

I am not trying to make people's lives harder. Promulgating a coherent, rational and healthy model of gender is the opposite. It is devastating that my son has fallen for an incoherent, irrational ideology that risks leading him to damage his body and health in an unattainable search for a body that "matches" his self image, instead of learning to accept the reality of the hand he has been dealt by his ancestors, God or evolution (depending on your belief system).

Quoting myself:

"I genuinely believe the proportion of male fetishists has gone down as the proportion of trans identifying males who are young and autistic has gone up. (I do however worry that those men are at risk of sexual predators and going on to develop maladaptive sexual personae because of it)"

I'm going to adjust my language slightly here as "predator" implies more intention than I intended:

I genuinely believe the proportion of male fetishists has gone down as the proportion of trans identifying males who are young and autistic has gone up. (I do however worry that those men are at risk of getting drawn into sexual identities, practices and cultures they don't have the maturity to understand and going on to develop maladaptive sexual personae because of it)

This is not to say there are no predators taking advantage of the explosion of queer-identifying young people. Predators are always attracted to youth subcultures because setting yourself up as an authority on the scene and who is "real" is a great way to get young people hanging on your words and wanting your approval, but rather to note that sexualised subcultures carry risks for ND people that aren't down to anyone having bad intentions but through mismatches in expectations and assumptions.

Firstly, many trans people say they don't have Gender Dysphoria.

Secondly there are studies that prove most trans people desist.

Lastly, you pushing PSEUDOSCIENCE. There are NO studies that show 'gendered brains'. NOT....ONE. Please stop lying and stop vomiting pseudoscience to push your hateful femphobic misogynistic agenda, @CosyTaupeShark .

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/feb/24/meet-the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-gina-rippon

and

https://theconversation.com/you-dont-have-a-male-or-female-brain-the-more-brains-scientists-study-the-weaker-the-evidence-for-sex-differences-158005

No, they are not! They are junk science with no basis. Shame on you for pushing such dangerous misinformation!

There are no valid studies, stop lying and pushing misinformation.

Evidence does show that the majority (not all) of transwomen have Autogynephilia.

go find something else to do!

No, we won't. You chose to come to this section and read the threads, why don't YOU go find something else to do, instead of spewing your ignorance, bigotry and pseudoscience.

Women are females. No male can know what it's like to grow from a girl into a woman, to experience menstruation, misogyny, cat-calling etc.

Change women to white to black and then ask it. No male can have the lived experience or understanding of a female. No white person can have the lived experience or understanding of a black person.

The oppressor sex class can never, NEVER have the lived experience of the oppressed sex class.

What you are vomiting is hateful, misogynistic nonsense.

As well as defining 'woman' differently to us (and to the UK government, and to everybody who is not a TRA), it's clear that CosyTaupeShark also has their own, individual definitions of 'fact' and 'belief'.

But then most transgenderists are also HumptyDumptyists.

It's not discredited or outdated at all, in fact, it is backed up by peer-reviewed research, so you've lied! You lied about the American Psychological Association, this does not look at all like they reject it. Looky here!: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2004-19367-006

and

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22005209/#:~:text=Abstract,%2Dfemale%20(MtF)%20transsexualism.

The greatest hypocrisy is you mentioning the troubled and disgraced WPATH (google the WPATH Files), and then have the nerve and gall to state we should "stick to proper peer-reviewed research". You first, instead of vomiting dangerous and now disgraced organisations like 'WPATH' and your pseudoscience. It's obvious you are deeply and utterly ill-informed on this issue.

My point to starting this thread was to ask, are we treating people who claim to have gender dysphoria in the best way? We don’t affirm to an anorexic that they are in fact fat, so why do we affirm someone’s thoughts that they are the opposite sex? We know that young people deeply regret the choices they made regards removing their breasts or in the case of males, being castrated. It is not helpful to label this type of questioning as transphobic, the word is starting to be meaningless, it is casually thrown around so frequently. We also know there are broadly 2 types of people caught up in this whirlwind of wanting to ‘transition’ young teens who are most likely same sex attracted, possibly on the autistic spectrum. The other group is mature males who have often fathered children….

The problems this causes for wider society are enormous. Just look at the NHS trying to accommodate men, men who wish to be treated as women, women and women who wish to be treated as men…while honouring single sex provision for females following the SC ruling.

at what point do we say No, imitating the opposite sex is not good for social cohesion. There is no 3rd sex, there is male or female and people need to live as the sex they were born. Just like we don’t encourage people who wished they could fly, to jump off buildings, why are we encouraging people to take hormones & have drastic surgery that will make them life long medical patients?

That final statement is ridiculous and shows you have no interest in giving trans women an ounce of respect. That has not been said ANYWHERE respectable.