And in other news…’dating coaches for incels’

[ErrolTheDragon]

I don’t really know where to begin with this one.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/8ddac8a7-f283-4f47-bcfd-8266282a5e4e?shareToken=7b103ed7e6efd0be1340b6f7e23d2da7

I don't disagree with him

I haven’t read the link but anything that encourages men to be less vile can only be a good thing. Deep down we can all wish this isn’t something that should even be needed but the hatred of women feels on the rise to me.

I am not sure we should write this off as an idea actually.

I don’t hate the idea. Crucially he differentiates between the actual phychos who should be left well alone and rather sad , isolated young men who just need a bit of help. He’s also clear that it’s not about getting people laid, and I don’t get the women civilising men’ vibe. It seems to be that if these men meet some women in positive circumstances it challenges their 2 dimensional views. It’s not mad

Yet another puff piece for the show Adolescence. Absolutely sick of it now.

My first thought was who are these dating coaches? Are they meant to be women?

If these incels go speed dating - are the women advised that they are meeting misogynistic men? Will the women and girls be told, will they have given their consent?

Is this another case of women expected to Be Kind for the benefit of men?

Im probably being a bit over sensitive and I agree that something needs to be done about incels et al.

But why can’t men sort out other men instead of making it our responsibility to show them the way?

I didn’t say I was against it but the emphasis seems odd. Before getting anywhere near ‘dating’, isn’t there a lot needs doing to better socialise boys to see girls as fully equal humans, not as sex objects/partners? Get them out of their Internet echo chambers - the big SM companies are at best negligent.

and maybe I’m being picky but “It's very easy to walk around hating 50 per cent of the population if you're never subjected to that half of the population.” …subjected to? What an extraordinarily odd choice of word.

He works with incels. It sounds like men sorting out their shit, to me. Somewhere along the line, boys are forgetting that women are people, and their crap social skills are stopping them finding out.

“ the moment you encourage these guys to go out and start re-engaging with family members, re-engaging with female friends, that can give them counterexamples of real women who are not one dimensional, but three dimensional. And then what have become black or white view starts to turn into shades of grey.
“And then what happens is they end up having more female friends. They build the skills that you need like the social skills for having friends and then having a relationship becomes a lot less of a hopeless prospect for them.”

How often do we complain about men who talk about themselves and ask nothing about you? How are they getting away with it? Give the guys lessons.

“Dating coaches” is a silly headline from The Times when what the guy is talking about really is broader and very sensible probably- interventions and support in reintegrating these men into normal society. I know the Singapore example says “dating coaches” which feels dodgy and potentially dangerous. Overall a helpful idea if done well. It’s not just about dating.

See the thing is, incels have been 'subjected' to women and girls already just living.
They all have/had mothers, aunts, sisters, female cousins, nieces, friends, been in school with girls, spoken to a woman at a checkout.

It just plays into their victimhood of it not being their fault, they just haven't met any nice women.

Yes @ErrolTheDragon- “subjected to” felt bizarre and concerning to me too

This is what we want isn’t it? Men teaching hopefully positive social skills to men? Seems to be a rise in men trying to counter the Tate messaging which is a good thing. Language might be a bit blunt for my taste but that might be what these men will notice

There used to be a programme on tv that did this although I can’t remember what it was called. They’d take clueless, socially awkward men and after analysing them on a set up date, they’d give them a makeover, teach them some social skills (usually complimenting women) and a bit of encouragement. It was quite compelling viewing.

It was really good that shows, before the time when the average person on the street understood enough about ASD traits but as the researchers say there are a significant number of men who fit the profile and struggle to relate to social situations let alone potentially romantic ones

But as I recall a lot of them emerged from the process for the better. I remember one episode where they got one guy to get over his lack of confidence by setting up a car boot stall and he had to give a compliment to every single woman who came up to his stall young or old. The positive and thrilling responses he got from all the women, particularly older women, once he got chatting and smiling with them, was such a nice revelation to him it changed his entire outlook and demeanour.

Absolutely it was great

That sounds good - normal human interaction not dating.

I don't see how teaching positive social skills can be a bad thing. We won't get change unless the problem is faced head on. Much better to provide positive role models and socialisation than to leave it to the Tates of this world.

The women they were ‘subjected to’ growing up were known quantities. They were familiar, safe, and predisposed to like them.
The ones they were exposed to at school were teenagers with weak social skills themselves, navigating the dog eat dog survival course that is secondary school.
A lot of these youngsters start failing in primary school- too rough, too loud, too quiet, inappropriate humour etc.
They start adulthood with no confidence and few skills

I worked hard with my boys because they were not socially gifted- lots of ASD in the family.
They are ok. One chooses not to socialise. The other does, but found it hard to meet people once he moved away from his uni cohort.
Lots of families don’t have someone coaching the DC. They have parents who also struggle socially.

Archived: https://archive.fo/kxtUW

I think the headline is awful clickbait that trivialises what they are doing.

I think socialisation coaching is a great idea. Not dating help. That implies, we'll help you get women to go out with you, which is not what the man is saying.

The most important socialisation is to make boys and men deeply understand a woman's right to say no. And how to deal with their own emotions about it.

Awful headline click bait but the concept sounds great and what many women have been advocating for.
"the focus would be on helping deeply isolated single young men form relationships and stop hating women".

I agree with this. I think this looks like a decent bloke who wants to help other men to be decent as well, young blokes need positive role models that they can accept and identify with.

I don't think it's a horrible idea even if I'm dubious about the packaging.

Loose talk about "incels" disguises the fact that there are a minority of young men on the internet who can radicalise each other into being dangerous psychos. There are a much larger number who are just sad, lonely, maybe autistic, maybe just lacking in social skills, who are treated brutally by the dating market.

Whatever the specific issues with Jordan Peterson, there's a need for Jordan Peterson type influencers who can give basic dad advice to young men who've never had basic dad advice. Tidy your room, have a shower, get a job, be a useful member of society instead of blaming everyone else.

Once they graduate from the basic dad advice stuff, there are dating coaches, male and female, who already do good business with men who have different challenges - widowers who have been out of the dating game for decades, men with disabilities, men who just lack skills and confidence. Find the right influencers who can package constructive advice to appeal to young men, and I think they'd lap it up.

But it would have to be organic. If it became a government anti-radicalisation scheme run through Prevent, it would be just as crap as every other government anti-radicalisation scheme.