Feeling very proud of Terf Island and the strong women within it... internationally, are we the most successful in combatting TRAs? I know the bar is very low - but is anyone doing better?

[loveyouradvice]

I am so aware how captured some countries - like Canada and Germany - are and how the state of play in Oz and NZ and Ireland and a handful of others is far more parlous than here (Which ones?).... but are we managing to be more successful than other countries in countering the TRAs???

And if so why? Beyond a British feistiness and the power of meeting and discussing issues via Mumsnet...

Feeling gently hopeful that in the same way that the Cass report is now being used internationally, that the pure logic and reason of our Supreme Court's reasoning may also be used elsewhere...

Clearly I am excluding Trump America......

Yes – except that that era is clearly over now, for those paying attention*.

Of course if you’re not an early adopter—and I wouldn’t say Ireland has historically ever been one of the cool kids—then you can keep going for years yet without noticing that the wind has changed.

(* I should caveat that by saying that it’s not clear yet whether this is going to be an age of Retvrn, or whether it’s just more age of iconoclasm – only now it’s the progressives who are become the stuffy conservatives)

Not sure why you exclude Trump US - his first EO was to ban transwomen from sex segregated space and from sport. This may have influenced people in the UK (though probably not the judges of the UK Supreme Court).

You can't travel the length of the UK in a day. That's from Land's End up to Sulum Voe in the Shetlands, which itself is a 12 hour ferry trip from Aberdeen (or a long flight ditto). I suppose you could fly, but that's the same for most countries.
I agree, though, that we seem to swim in sceptical water here.

The UK has an incredibly strong tradition of organising and a solid feminist history - we owe the women who went before us so much for assuring the legal status our court and tribunal wins have been based on. Our wins are based on solid ground and not the whims of one person. The legal rights of LGBT people haven't been touched in this ruling either, only affirmed.

We also have the benefit of a relatively straightforward legal system and no written constitution (we have one, just not a written one).

In many ways it's not surprising that the unions and political parties etc turned their backs on us - we've had to fight every step of the way and they were never interested in women's rights, always trying to put us off until 'later'. Women have won everything for ourselves so it's not surprising we're putting up a fight. It's also not surprising that the rewriting of history and truth is a prerequisite to oppose us and get young people onside in one of the most openly anti-women and anti-gay movements I've seen in my life.

Yes, I do think that it is the one good thing to have come out of the Trump government ... but my concern there is that there is none of the even-handedness of the SC ruling, where the rights of transpeople in law are recognised

(Hmm.... I do think that was a bad law, but it is one we are lumbered with, and can live with)

In 'As You Like It' I think it's dramatic irony.

The problem with Trump is he's just leaving everyone to sink or swim. He is IMO right that there are only two sexes and you can't change sex, and no one should be made to pretend otherwise. But loads of vulnerable children and teens are caught up in it and still need help with the problems that have made them turn to GI, and the power structures and cultural forces that have led them towards it need to be replaced with sane ones. You can't just drop people in it - I can see how that could cause distress and harm and also plays into the "most oppressed" narrative.

Fair enough, that's a slight exaggeration. I was think more in terms of cities - Glasgow/Edinburgh down to London, that sort of thing.

I feel exhausted driving from Leicester to Blackpool - 3 interminable hours including the bloody awful M6 (second only to the M25 in its Hellish nature)!😁

You mean essentially he's using it to mock Orlando's unrealistic ideas about Rosalind by having him tell her them without knowing who she is? I'd agree.. it's not like he's implying irl these things would happen. Plenty of other unrealistic things happen in the plays : love at first sight & engagement the evening they meet for Romeo & Juliet for instance. . Or the God of marriage popping up at the end of As you like it

Thanks. Exactly.

I have to disagree with those who have said the not for profit health sector has been a factor. I am actually a bit surprised anyone would say that, as many of the worst affected countries also have not for profit health services. And they, rather like the NHS, are usually very captured on this issue.

Anyway, one thing that I believe has been a factor in the UK has been a fairly strong and varied press, much more so than some other English speaking countries, with quite a few widely read publications from differernt political views. The US also has many news outlets but they are much more polarized, and countries with smaller populations may only have a few major news outlets.

I also think there is a sense in which the English character is characterized by a kind of small c, grass roots conservatism. Even on the left. This is quite different than some of the colonies which seems to adopt a kind of progressive ideology which seems to believe change is the same as progress, which is very invested in seeing itself as kicking against the establishment, and which seems to have something to prove.

I also think that the UK has retained supremacy of Parliament more than some of the colonies and that has served them well. Here in Canada, or in the US, you will often see the courts taking a more legislative approach and that is considered to be progressive.

Agreed. Canadian healthcare is not for profit and it's absolutely captured.

However, the fact that the NHS is national may have helped. For all the criticism of the lack of data collection the NHS data seems much better than Canadian data. Healthcare in Canada is the responsibility of each Province or Territory so it's fragmented and hard to grasp what is actually happening (I'm thinking about gender affirming care for minors).

Also agree that the varied nature of the press in the UK has helped. I have very much appreciated the media like The Times that has actually done it's job instead of kowtowing to zealots (looking at you BBC and the Guardian).

I think the Canadian media has been really instrumental in making sure people don't really know what's going on with gender affirming care in hospitals and in research. It's actually quite sinister.

INeedAPensieve · Yesterday 09:47

And yet the ordinary women of Scotland rallied round and with grit, determination and humour (humour is always needed in dark times) they took on a mammoth task and won. That three ordinary women in their middle years actually took on a powerful government (with international backing, money coming out of their ears and the strength of the patriarchy behind them) and WON is testament to the strength of character that Scottish women have.

I think that they were ordinary, yet proved themselves to be extraordinary. How many would have folded there arms, dug their heels in and refused so stubbornly to be pushed back?

You can't travel the length of the UK in a day. That's from Land's End up to Sulum Voe in the Shetlands

Point taken, but...

Sullom Voe isn't even the Northernmost point of Mainland. Skaw, on Unst, is the most Northerly settlement in Britain.

I agree mostly- I feel like England hits a sweet spot where it's progressive in the best sense for women, ethnic minorities, gay people...(record on working class people not good this century really but hopefully will improve) but not in the sense you outline of mindless 'progress' that ends up not being positively progressive but giving dangerous ideologies free rein : eg. Fascism, communism, eugenics...and this...

This moderation feeds into the press issue you mentioned: the more left leaning papers were shamefully cowardly w regard to top-down leadership but still had multiple journalists: Freeman, Moore, Bindel, Sodha etc who refused to knuckle under.

Sorry, that was meant to be quoting this.

Also very proud of Terf island, long may it reign!

I think it's to do with the British strong sense of fairness. It's why my parents were enamoured with this place (still are) when they immigrated 50 years ago.