Feeling very proud of Terf Island and the strong women within it... internationally, are we the most successful in combatting TRAs? I know the bar is very low - but is anyone doing better?

[loveyouradvice]

I am so aware how captured some countries - like Canada and Germany - are and how the state of play in Oz and NZ and Ireland and a handful of others is far more parlous than here (Which ones?).... but are we managing to be more successful than other countries in countering the TRAs???

And if so why? Beyond a British feistiness and the power of meeting and discussing issues via Mumsnet...

Feeling gently hopeful that in the same way that the Cass report is now being used internationally, that the pure logic and reason of our Supreme Court's reasoning may also be used elsewhere...

Clearly I am excluding Trump America......

Not convinced being a small country had much to do with it on the basis that even smaller countries eg Ireland, have fallen for TWAW ideology hook, line and sinker.
Mind you, the Irish are so desperate to repent for the sins of the 1960’s-early 80s that all someone has to say was the word liberal and they fell into line largely without question. Self ID is law there, I believe, (stealthily done on the back of the Repeal vote) and with the exception of a few notable voices, no one really seems to care.

They're also opposed to gay parenting rights & adoption...I'd say our ways are better on this issue.

We have a tradition as well of men dressing as women for entertainment- but not drag.
The Two Ronnies, Panto Dames, Dick Emery (the male strength in a ‘woman’ was part of the act)

And strong no nonsense women- Last of the Summer Wine battle-axes.

Sorry, my post 2 posts above was replying to this

Having an open, diverse and bloody minded press has really mattered. In lots of countries cases like Karen White would not have been publicized.

We’ve seen how some newspapers minimize or downright suppress cases of violence against women and girls if they can’t frame the situation to suit their agendas - it would all be like that with less press diversity.

It’s an interesting thought to me, that those who made Little Britain would probably now be 100% behind the trans movement, but only a few years back were demonstrating how ridiculous it was.

In its time, they probably saw it as the next step in a long comedy tradition leading from pantomime dames, through Les Dawson and Lily Savage

So there it is. Whoever wrote Little Britain probably unintentionally played a part in helping women, not least because of all the “I’m a lady you see,” GIFs.

I do agree with this, I think it’s very important. There’s an intolerance of bullshit, zealous Puritanism and excessive earnestness in British culture and a tendency to laugh at po-faced righteousness. Not universally of course and there are plenty who are willing to swallow gender ideology but also a groundswell of people who are very fed up of having it forced on them.

Brilliant thread. So much food for thought, and I agree with many of these points. Nothing to add except my thanks ❤️

And Monty Python before them - the Loretta bit in Life of Brian summed up the whole situation perfectly.

It’s interesting about drag in entertainment - ironically our long history of cross-dressing entertainers doesn’t serve to reinforce the idea that you can change sex or “be” really the opposite sex, because this entertainment has always worked on the basis that you know what sex someone actually is under the disguise. From Shakespeare to Python, Les Dawson, Catherine Tate and many more.

I think some of it is that because the UK has been ahead of the game in giving equal rights to LGB people, by the time trans ideology really took hold, it was too late here to throw it in with clearly needed laws on things like same sex marriage. We'd achieved that already. Attempts were made, of course, to general detriment, but we already knew that the framework for equal rights existed.

I agree that this played a part.

I also think that the longstanding tradition of ‘fair play’ plays a part. Other counties find our culture of queuing notable, and the way that we give way at roundabouts etc. It is pretty engrained in our culture that fairness is important, even when there is opportunity to ‘push in’, this is frowned upon.

Whilst GenX have missed several social memos, the stiff upper lip and ‘less of that fuss and nonsense’ when it comes to people having conniptions is also relevant. The, but they will all kill themselves, won’t cut it with ‘the masses’. ‘The masses’ are likely to suggest that an intervention is needed for anyone that is suicidal, but giving in to demands isn’t the way forward. Britain has a longstanding experience of terrorism, and has been unforgiving in its resolve not to an acquiesce.

I agree w that to some extent, though I would argue that France's is driven more by tradition of skeptical secularism (esp as fewer French are religious now) and opposition to puritanism(this can go too far - arguably they needed MeToo far more than US did)

Otoh, bc our opposition to the trans ideology is not driven by Catholicism, we can simultaneously support lesbian parenting etc, while Hungary bans adoption, has started clamping down on public statements, films, & now bans any kind of public procession for gay rights, & Italy makes it harder for same sex couples to adopt or get parental rights,( tho not banning).

Unless you think we should be like that...?

I agree mostly - tho in Shakespeare, while the audience ofc knows it's a disguise, the other characters don't unless in on it. But that's just poetic licence ofc.

Yes, I've just been reading the comments below an Independent article about Bella Ramsay coming out as non binary on my Facebook news feed. Everyone is just gently taking the piss.

It’s interesting, and that’s made me ponder it more - the other characters supposedly don’t know, yet men are often attracted to the “disguised as a boy” woman (as satirised in the blackadder “Bob” story). Also the disguise comes off as part of the resolution - reality is restored. On top of the fact that the audience also knew female parts were being played by males anyway - that’s a lot of understanding of actual sex going on. It’s not that you can’t dress up and pretend, or that people couldn’t relate to a female character as female even if not played by one - but no one would have thought any of it meant that a man could actually become or be a woman. The disguises and jokes just emphasise the reality.

😂

You’re not wrong…we rule (as opposed to wee rule.)

All our queens have been strong amazing women. And while I believe UK women as a whole have had a huge part we mustn’t loos sight that this was Scottish women bringing this case. Scottish women are something to contend with when you look at Scottish history.

Thank you for saying this @Burntt

I have been so disappointed in my country lately and absolutely livid at what the SNP have caused and done. I was always a proud Scot and this whole thing has tainted the love I have for being Scottish and my country. Our rich history and beautiful scenery and amazing inventions. It felt for the past few years like it had turned to ash in my mouth for me. I was disgusted at our politicians and horrified at Nicola Sturgeon. From a Scottish point of view and that she was also a woman doing this to other women. She hasn't ever backed down or apologised and it enrages me.

And yet the ordinary women of Scotland rallied round and with grit, determination and humour (humour is always needed in dark times) they took on a mammoth task and won. That three ordinary women in their middle years actually took on a powerful government (with international backing, money coming out of their ears and the strength of the patriarchy behind them) and WON is testament to the strength of character that Scottish women have. It's no coincidence we were the country who burned the most witches. The ones who survived and escaped that awful time are part of us. They are our ancestors. The daughters and granddaughters who fought against the establishment then, who defied the witch hunter generals and the kings is where we draw strength from. Well done FWS and all Scottish women who fought this. I'm braver now and fighting it myself too! 💐

With Scotland, I think so much of this has been about "we must be more liberal and lefty and "progressive" than stuffy old England/the UK government, in any way possible, never mind thinking about it if actually makes sense or helps people". And in some ways Scottish law and policy has been more left-wing in (IMO) a good way, but just leaping onto any "progressive" bandwagon without thinking it through or looking into the facts is not automatically a good idea.

(I think this might inform Canadian and Australian thinking too. "We'll show you we're more progressive and modern than stuffy old Brits")

The problem for people like Nicola Sturgeon is it's hard to climb down from such a ridiculous position as thinking males should go in female prisons because they say so, and the rest of it. What's she going to say? "I now realise the bleeding obvious was correct"? Hence all the "We have always supported biological same-sex spaces" type lies but NS and her flying monkeys cannot possibly get away with that.

"With Scotland, I think so much of this has been about "we must be more liberal and lefty and "progressive" than stuffy old England/the UK"

That's the dynamic I meant when I said it's Ireland that worries me most. The devolved countries have the UK to do a tug on the leash when it all gets too stupid, and Canada ultimately can't ignore the US. But Ireland has the worst of both worlds – a ruling class that can't even see its own virtue signalling, while being an actual serious country with no real check on it if it does decide to go lunatic. Ultimately it's going to have to be the Irish people themselves who put an end to it, and given how febrile things can get there historically it ought to be a terrifying prospect for those in power there.

Australia seems to have the balance about right though, that seems like quite an impressive political culture looking from the outside.

Yes absolutely Ireland is similar, though as you said more of a reaction against past illiberalism and the power (and wrongs) of the church.

It's also all tied up with this recent concept that everything of long standing must be "disrupted", "queered", dismantled, changed even if for the worse, just for the sake of it. I'm not a conservative, at all, but some things are long-standing for a reason (like understanding that there are two sexes and they are not the same, and generally not just taking people's word for it about who/what they are, especially criminals). If you "queer" everything then basically it all falls down.

I just urge women who have lacked confidence in this issue to get over on X or use some of the facts on here and show them to people to see what we are up against. That’s how I found out what was howling and how my friends and family have also seen the abuse women are getting, the threats, the risks, the misogyny, the cancelling, the recordings of men’s sexual offences as women’s, the invasion of sports, the arts… just PLEASE look at the facts and the stats and keep at it. I don’t believe people really understand they don’t understand the SC judgment and they do not know what has brought us here to this point.

Brilliant @ @WhatterySquash

If you queer everything, it falls down.

I think our strong sense of humour and dislike of pretension combined helped an emperor’s new clothes reaction. Remember that photo of the bloke in a wig and frock who called himself Melissa as the new green party candidate?