Women only festivals

[Sortumn]

We have a camping festival fairly locally to me that advertises itself as women only. It's also in the name of the camp.
There have been many posts over the years asking if 'trans sisters' can come and the response is "of course we welcome all women". You'd have to follow the page a while to get the vibe of it and realise it's not women only.

I have never gone because many of the workshops are very much along the lines of featuring emotive aspects of our biology and I don't see the I'd feel comfortable in one of those with someone who doesn't share our biology. In a wider sense I solo camp in mixed sex places often and it's a risk I take for the freedom it provides.

I suspect that they'll carry on very much as usual as it's unlikely anyone would take it to the courts. I'm feeling a bit 'kind' about it as I feel it is what it is. A small festival set up by women with good intentions and I'd hate to see it collapse altogether. I think the right thing to do is to make it clear now what 'women only' means but it's in the name and branding and I can't see the name changing.
Is there a fudge that they can do to still offer it to women and men who say they are women? How would they make it comply with the law?
Can they exclude from these sessions where sex really matters?
Really just trying to think how events like this will have to move forward.

As I understand it, it would be up to men (the traditional kind) to challenge it. In a “why these men but not all men” kind of way.

‘Women only’ means trans men can come. So they’d have women, trans women, and trans men. They’re in a bit of a pickle.

Yes I agree, but to actually turn into a pickle am I right in thinking it would need to go through the courts, with either a women or man bringing the case? So it's likely to carry on as normal.

I think the other pickle comes with people voting with their feet either way and then being left with numbers that aren't sustainable to run.

Yes, I suspect it’s likely to carry on as normal. Unless the organisers were ‘being kind’ to avoid vitriol and hate and nastiness. In which case they can heave a sigh of relief and make it genuinely women only. Pressure might come from other attendees too who were also ‘being kind’ to avoid hate. Some might feel emboldened now to ask the organisers for women only to genuinely mean women only.

Surely, all the organisers need to do is change their name. If they advertise it as ‘Women Only’ they’re breaking the law if they allow T.G. men in. The law is now crystal clear so no more fudging.

I'm sure organisations that want to maintain a "female bodies and male people who claim to be women" only vibe will just change the language from "women only" to something like "women-centred" or "femme-first" that doesn't exclude men but makes it clear what the event is about.

And IMO that is absolutely fine. I don't want people who want that vibe to stop being able to have the events they want, I just don't want the equalities act to be used to shoehorn trans identifying men into things that exist to support women (biological meaning) with the risks and inequities, physical and social, that come with our female bodies.

I would love it if this ruling leads to a new language for gender groups that isn't an appropriation of sex. If a mass Genderist hissy-fit along the lines of "fuck you and your women-only spaces, if our trans-sisters aren't welcome we aren't going to use them either, we are going to start building our own femme-spaces" means genderists finally start creating new ways of thinking about people and gender without undermining the entirely separate but still very necessary language and provisions of sex I think that would be absolutely great.

But it would also have to accept any man who wanted to attend. If they refused he could take them to court.

Yes. That's not a problem. In practice they'd have to anyway because how would they police gender?

The intention for "femme centred" would be to set a tone of "feminine stuff" so people could make the choice about whether it's going to suit them, and people who join then feel the "feminine stuff" isn't up their street and want to change it could be told "you are very welcome to be here but that's not what this event / space / whatever is about so we won't be changing it. Welcome to leave if it's not your thing"

Basically, putting gender on the same level as any other interest or hobby or social group. Totally fine for them as enjoys it, not a thing to worry about for them as don't.

I suspect not changing the name and still allowing TIMs would draw the attention of women's rights groups who will put pressure on - rightly so, language needs to be clear.

Agree with above poster that they could just change the name to something more feminine focused and advertise as for those who identify.

Notwithstanding all the legal comments women have made here I would be interested to see how it goes. If we tended to avoid tw, surely they would take the hint and not take part. If on the other hand tw were welcomed and made a fuss of, you & I would know it was not a worthy place to be.

They might come a cropper if women start to decide they’d like to attend with their husbands or male partners. They would no longer be able to say no. There are so many people who like to push their luck these days that it wouldn’t surprise me.

It would be interesting to see who would walk out in anger if male partners started openly to attend. I bet most women would simply put up with it.