Reframe your disappointment

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

Inspired by a couple of other threads about the reaction to the Supreme Court judgment from trans allies, I thought it might be interesting to have a thread to discuss what to say to people if it comes up in conversation.

Comments I've seen so far seem to suggest:

• the judgment was legally wrong and this isn't the end
• the judgment might have been legally correct but it was morally wrong and the law needs to be changed
• trans rights are now being rolled back
• this is a victory for the far right
• this was orchestrated and bank rolled by the far right
• this decision will now embolden transphobes to harass and victimise trans people

Perhaps we could brainstorm the best ways to respond to these (and any other) talking points, should they arise?

No, that was a different comment in which you said "trans men" but you actually meant "trans women".

Typo? More like a Freudian slip!

Nah. That’s what is called an act of desperation after you realised that you had walked into articulating your rational thoughts rather than your performative ones.

Go well.

But you’re fine with bullying women to shut up, be kind, and let men into our spaces?

Well quite. Despite the attempts to tell us that Malaga Airport is not a thing.

To me, it's a bit like the assumption left wingers make that being on the left = being a nice person. I've known enough people in left wing spaces who definitely weren't that I'm afraid that usually sets me off on a rant.

Because they're 0.5% of the population and in reality it's a tiny, insignificant thing being blown up by the media to make gullible people think it's some kind of massive issue. That's what they always do to get people to hate on minorities and always bringing up a few isolated cases to tar everyone with the same brush.

Oh dear as an 80s lesbian am I getting forced teamed with the TQ+ again in the rewriting of history?

I was on the LGB phonelines for four years in Scotland as they were known as then in the mid 1990s. And yes we did have a discussion about whether it was ok for a particular trans caller to phone week in and week out about how much black boy dick he was getting. We were a freephone line. Guess he didn’t want to pay for the premium line. And some lesbians did object. I thought what’s the harm then? I got bored then as I volunteered to take those calls from him. I am angry now I wasted my time pandering to him.

You're funny, though possibly not intentionally so!
I reference ActUp and you reference Boy George on TOTP😂

I remember the '80s very well. There was a lot of ridiculous and excessive fear of AIDS in some quarters - low risk people claiming they were at risk of catching it from toilet seats, for example. Overall, though, gay men and lesbians were becoming more accepted. Section 28 must have been worrying for lesbians and gay men but there was a lot of criticism of it and eventually it was removed. From my perspective, the concern about Section 28 seemed somewhat overblown, but I accept that it did have a chilling effect for a time - until societal attitudes changed.

There is one huge difference between the battles over gay rights and the battles over trans rights. Gay people did not claim rights at the expense of other people's rights. In the last few years transactivists have had a very significant impact on women's rights, now show by the supreme court ruling to have been underpinned by an incorrect (and indeed "incoherent") interpretation of the Equality Act.

The Equality Act is a valiant attempt to balance the sometimes competing rights of different groups of people; it can only work if it is based on reality not just on feelings, and if the interests of all groups of people are taken seriously. Trans people are protected under the protected characteristic of gender reassignment from discrimination compared with how they would be treated if they were the same people in every way apart from gender reassignment.

‘Trans rights are being rolled back’

the reframe: it was never a ‘right’ in the first place for men to be in women’s spaces - the law was always clear. Stonewall convincing orgs, businesses and local gov that a GRC meant an actual change in biological sex was the problem, and any idiot could see that was never ever in the spirit of the law (GRC and EA) as it was intended - biological sex is immutable. Get over it.

Yes, that's a good one.

Trans rights aren't being rolled back. The problem is that trans rights organisations allowed trans people to believe that they had legal rights that they do not actually have, and have never had. Whilst that may now lead to the impression that trans rights are being rolled back, they are not. It is women's rights that have been clarified and affirmed. Organisations such as Stonewall need to take responsibility for their role in spreading misinformation.

I understand that the Supreme Court (and many of women) disagree, however I don’t feel that trans women in my spaces is an infringement of my rights.

I wouldn’t question one in a bathroom, or changing room, or deny care etc.

The Alsatian comment was meant in the way that I’m happy for trans women to be categorised as woman. I believe there’s a difference between biologically female, and a woman - I don’t dismiss gender identities or see them alongside biological sex.

Because I’m happy to consider trans women under the category of woman, I wouldn’t personally have an issue with them in “my spaces.”

I don’t expect everyone to agree with that, and obviously know that many don’t, but personally didn’t require a court judgment to tell me biological fact, or establish who can go where.

I don't want for a moment to minimise the impact the AIDS crisis had on the gay community, but it's possible to argue that it did save gay activism. We often forget that the gay (male) activist scene had alienated lots of potential allies through performative extremism and the influence of groups like PIE. This was not good for gay men who just wanted to live as equals in society.

Once the initial panic over AIDS began to calm down, that enabled a fresh generation of gay leaders and influencers to emerge, who weren't mad and who could talk about the problems of gay men in a way that normies found sympathetic. Groups like Stonewall that emerged at the time have been living off the credit ever since.

If you were sent to prison would you still have no issue sharing your space with a transwomen? Someone like Karen White or Isla Bryson

yeah but you don’t think they’re real women not really. You’d not fir example wonder why it is that people seeking surrogates never ask a TW to have a baby for them would you?

Everything you’ve said here just underlines that you know transwomen are men and always will be.

All the transwomen I have met in real life are heterosexual - i.e. they are attracted to women.

Such a "tiny insignificant thing" that the Supreme Court granted permission for the case because it deemed it a point of law of general public importance.

The Supreme Court doesn't grant permission for cases just for shits n giggles, you know.

Lefty here too!

The thing is, they're not your spaces, they are women's spaces.

And in order for there to be any justification for those spaces to exist, we need to be able to show that there is a need for them from the point of view of the people they are for, and we need to provide them in a way that actually meets that need.

You might not object to sharing toilets and changing rooms with trans women. But you do not need a shared space with trans women. A single sex space for women only would also meet any need you might have to get changed and use the toilet away from men. Whereas for other women, who do object to sharing such spaces with trans women, a shared space does not meet their needs.

Ah leftists like these you mean...
https://communistparty.org.uk/2023/03/29/the-gender-recognition-bill-and-equality-law/

The funny thing about this one is that most of the 'sheep' don't follow this closely so won't understand the significance of what you've said.

Another one that's really hard for 'sheep' to argue with is: I think trans people have the right to high quality, well-evidenced health care.

Edit: just in case I'm being obscure - the latter is because I believe hormones and surgery are not good healthcare options for trans people. It's too ideological for anyone to have actually done proper research in this area.

Do you think that all changes are a good thing?

To be fair in my experience all the older ones I’ve come across are heterosexual. Younger, ie under 40, have more often than not been gay.

That is a luxury belief, because it doesn't really affect you personally having a trans woman in your space.

It is not your right to give up women's spaces and places as a whole to trans women. You are not the woman losing out in a podium place or funding to a trans woman. You are not the woman placed in a cell with a trans woman.

The SC has declared that the only definition of a woman is as a biological female. That does not include trans women.

And unfortunately some of us know (and love) men who used to be lovely, but have become self righteous and intolerant of anyone who disagrees with their newfound worldview.