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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
GiveMeSpanakopita · 17/04/2025 09:15

Not the Guardian behaving like Hiroo Onoda lol!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda

Hiroo Onoda - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 17/04/2025 09:15

A barrister who uses the ideologically loaded and offensive to many “cis” isn’t worth reading so I stopped at the second paragraph.

edit to change to loaded

Springtimefordaffs · 17/04/2025 09:23

I don't often get to use the word convoluted but it is a fair way to describe that article.
To me it makes no sense.
It was a better paper when it had the typos

GCAcademic · 17/04/2025 09:30

What he (the Guardian) is saying is that the government needs to change the Equality Act to remove its current protections against discrimination on the basis of sex.

How progressive and not at all what one might expect from a privileged white man.

FeelingLessTired · 17/04/2025 09:32

I don't think The Guardian has quite grasped yet that they are on the wrong side of history.

PronounssheRa · 17/04/2025 09:35

Ah Sam Fowles, I knew it would be him before I even opened the link.

akkakk · 17/04/2025 09:42

At one level he is right - the judgement specifically applies to defining words in one piece of legislation...

however, it has much wider impact - it is the first time that the supreme court has defined women / man as being biologically and sex defined - it would be hard to define it differently now in any other law.

It is important to also remember that the vast majority of decisions being made in favour of transwomen and against women over the last decade+ have not been made on the basis of court decisions, but by normal human beings misinterpreting (often deliberately) the law and making their own decisions - decisions fuelled by those who shout the loudest - fuelled by bullying - fuelled by misogynistic perspectives... this judgement rebalances that - it shifts power back to those who speak from truth and common sense / from a scientific basis... every discussion now has a starting point of 'the supreme court defined a woman as one born a woman' - now let's discuss toilets / membership / sports / etc. in that context...

So, yes, in splitting hairs and technicalities, he is observing that narrow scope correctly - but he is not recognising the incredibly powerful impact it will have...

and it is why the fight doesn't stop here - because there are a lot of people who have very vocally taken a position that is inaccurate, and who are now on the back foot and looking for ways to regain face / reputation / etc. from this decision which has driven a horse and carriage through their interpretation of the law...

for some bigger organisations who don't care about saving face, or where the decision was not necessarily a person's to own, but an edict from above (NHS / government / etc.) it is easy to see which way to move now, and arguably there should be few issues... but for others such as Mermaids / Stonewall / even Amnesty International - it is more challenging, so they will find anything they can to argue for no change - it will be necessary for the fight to continue, but the advantage now is that the power balance has changed and all discussions can start with - the SC defined a woman as a based on biological sex - now let's continue the discussion...

BabaYagasHouse · 17/04/2025 09:46

akkakk · 17/04/2025 09:42

At one level he is right - the judgement specifically applies to defining words in one piece of legislation...

however, it has much wider impact - it is the first time that the supreme court has defined women / man as being biologically and sex defined - it would be hard to define it differently now in any other law.

It is important to also remember that the vast majority of decisions being made in favour of transwomen and against women over the last decade+ have not been made on the basis of court decisions, but by normal human beings misinterpreting (often deliberately) the law and making their own decisions - decisions fuelled by those who shout the loudest - fuelled by bullying - fuelled by misogynistic perspectives... this judgement rebalances that - it shifts power back to those who speak from truth and common sense / from a scientific basis... every discussion now has a starting point of 'the supreme court defined a woman as one born a woman' - now let's discuss toilets / membership / sports / etc. in that context...

So, yes, in splitting hairs and technicalities, he is observing that narrow scope correctly - but he is not recognising the incredibly powerful impact it will have...

and it is why the fight doesn't stop here - because there are a lot of people who have very vocally taken a position that is inaccurate, and who are now on the back foot and looking for ways to regain face / reputation / etc. from this decision which has driven a horse and carriage through their interpretation of the law...

for some bigger organisations who don't care about saving face, or where the decision was not necessarily a person's to own, but an edict from above (NHS / government / etc.) it is easy to see which way to move now, and arguably there should be few issues... but for others such as Mermaids / Stonewall / even Amnesty International - it is more challenging, so they will find anything they can to argue for no change - it will be necessary for the fight to continue, but the advantage now is that the power balance has changed and all discussions can start with - the SC defined a woman as a based on biological sex - now let's continue the discussion...

It is important to also remember that the vast majority of decisions being made in favour of transwomen and against women over the last decade+ have not been made on the basis of court decisions, but by normal human beings misinterpreting (often deliberately) the law and making their own decisions - decisions fuelled by those who shout the loudest - fuelled by bullying - fuelled by misogynistic perspectives... this judgement rebalances that - it shifts power back to those who speak from truth and common sense / from a scientific basis... every discussion now has a starting point of 'the supreme court defined a woman as one born a woman' - now let's discuss toilets / membership / sports / etc. in that context...

Yes. Thank you for laying this out clearly

sandgreen · 17/04/2025 10:11

While I expected handwringing and pushback from the Graun (comments closed, natch) it is beyond offensive that this barrister implores us to remember this is “not an abstract debate but concerns real people”. Yes Sam. Women are real people not part of an abstract debate too, but that seems to have eluded you somehow…

user1471538275 · 17/04/2025 10:16

There is a reason The Guardian have put that in Opinion rather than News.

WeeBisom · 17/04/2025 10:25

I got mad at this article, then remembered that TRAs have to find some way to feel better about this judgment so its comforting for them to say that the silly women spent a quarter of a million pounds only to have their legal rights 'untouched'. This entirely ignores the fact that women can now confidently vindicate and claim rights which for years have been eroded by genderism. Our rights were there, they were just being trampled on and ignored: we lost sporting medals, single sex spaces (in prisons, rape counselling services, changing rooms etc).

I absolutely disagree that before this decision the equality act was "interpreted simply". He says that people who were born women and males with a GRC were women for the purposes of the act. This is wrong - males who didn't have a GRC also claimed to be women under the act. There was great confusion about how the GRA interacted with the act, and whether the interpretation changed depending on whether you had a GRC or not. And this interpretation would mean women who identified as men weren't covered under maternity provisions.

The idea that there are now multiple legal classes of women and man which require different interpretations, which makes the law complicated, is a disingenuous fudge. The Scottish government's interpretation of the act also required multiple legal classes of men and women. The Supreme Court ruled that 'woman' means all females whether or not they have GRCs, and 'male' means all males whether or not they have a GRC. the Scottish government proposed that 'woman' means females without a GRC, males with a GRC (but not males without a GRC), and also sometimes females with a GRC (but not females without a GRC). This was unworkable nonsense.

"The 2018 act will still permit the appointment of a trans woman ahead of an equally qualified biological woman if the appointment can be justified on the basis of their “particular characteristics or situation”." I can't see this happening ever, based on the judgment. As the Supreme Court said, if you favour a transwoman over a woman then it would likely be discriminatory against equally qualified males, so you would have to abandon the entire concept of female only recruitment.

The article breezily skips over the breast feeding provisions etc and doesn't talk about how a major win in this judgment is for transmen who would actually have LOST maternity and breastfeeding rights if the Scottish government had won. But no one cares about transmen, as usual.

"No trans people were represented during the case." Yes, I've heard that a lot. Jo Maugham says that trans NGOs and charities didn't want to get involved in case they got abuse. Trans people should be furious their organisations didn't step up to represent them in this litigation. As for the fact that no individual trans person was entitled to be heard - this case is actually very dry and technical and is all about statutory interpretation. It's purely a question of law. I don't see how getting (presumably emotive) testimony from a trans person would have assisted the court. Amnesty international also fought very hard for the trans position, as did the Scottish government.

The article also talks about the decision having 'limited reach' but then says Parliament needs to 'urgently look at the Equality Act again'. Why? If the decision is so trivial and limited and doesn't change anything, why does Parliament have to look at the Equality act? TRAs seem to want to have it both ways (surprise surprise). The judgment is simultaneously a nothing burger that also is catastrophic for trans rights.

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 17/04/2025 10:53

Akua Reindorf (KC) has just posted this analysis:

https://nitter.net/akuareindorf/status/1912801246429303217#m

(nitter link for those not on Twix)

eulittleb831 · 18/04/2025 11:21

Sam Fowles identifies as a Barrister but he has confirmed only that he is not a very good one neither is he respected in the eyes of the profession.

nauticant · 18/04/2025 11:31

I got mad at this article, then remembered that TRAs have to find some way to feel better about this judgment so its comforting for them to say that the silly women spent a quarter of a million pounds only to have their legal rights 'untouched'.

One amusing response I've heard a number of times from transwomen is "this decision has destroyed my life, waffle waffle waffle waffle, this decision will change absolutely nothing in how I lead my life".

What they're saying is that the catastrophic outcome of the decision is that people at large won't now have to feel obliged to go along with TWAW. The "harm" they're experiencing from the decision is actually narcissistic injury.

ItisntOver · 18/04/2025 11:42

GCAcademic · 17/04/2025 09:30

What he (the Guardian) is saying is that the government needs to change the Equality Act to remove its current protections against discrimination on the basis of sex.

How progressive and not at all what one might expect from a privileged white man.

A dear friend of John Nicholson and admirer of RMW iirc.

Chersfrozenface · 18/04/2025 11:47

Ooh, I have noted "narcissistic injury'.

Excellent, accurate term.

transdimensional · 18/04/2025 11:48

What I found even stupider was Robin Moira White's view, also in the Guardian, that "We now know that the supreme court was indeed wrong in its judgment." Apparently RMW knows more about the law than a unanimous panel of SC justices!
TBF the paper also published a sensible piece by Susanna Rustin.

HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 18/04/2025 14:26

RMW can stamp his Verruca Salt foot all he likes: the law is the law.

When will the Graun stop publishing these embarrassing spoiled brat views?

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