let's remember Mumsnet banned us all for transphobia all those years ago!

[dontforgetnow]

I have seen a lot of well deserved shout outs to the brilliant Magdalen Berns today ❤️. let's not forget that she brought a bunch of us together after we were banned from Mumsnet for transphobia back in the bad old days. and her videos were born from those disturbing days and furtive chats. So thanks Mumsnet, I guess 😁. let's raise a glass to MB 🍺🍷🥃❤️

Is today the day to criticise Mumsnets approach to this. The Supreme Court result yesterday was born out of Mumsnet. Things could have been very different.

And don’t tell me you said thanks Mumsnet. I can read your title.

Yes, I think it’s a well deserved criticism actually.

Mumsnet claims that it’s a supportive place for women (it’s main user base), but in-fact for several years actively stopped women from posting honestly about the fact that men are not and never will be us - banned us from using ordinary factual words to describe males.

They bowed to activist pressure to silence many fantastic posters on here - not for anything harmful, but for simply stating biological fact.

Did they really not think women would be angry about that??

Are any of us perfect? Have none of us ever done something we regret, taken what was with hindsight the wrong approach? How many mumsnetters cannot be honest at work or with friends? Let’s recognise an imperfect world and show grace for the platform that brought women together to eventuate in yesterday’s ruling. What have you done for women’s rights compared to Mumsnet can I ask? Let those who have done more throw stones, but I think the women who actually did bring about yesterdays results would be far more gracious than this. Let’s be more like them and work for change, not petty sniping at past errors.

It was possible to discuss the issues here, albeit not in plain English, for years when you could be banned from all forms of social media for saying almost anything close to biological reality. It saved my sanity. I am very grateful to Justine for walking that tightrope even while she lost advertisers over it.

"A significant minority of our users feel very strongly about women’s rights. This is an issue that needs to be discussed and that’s why we’re prepared to take any potential advertising hit.”

Guardian article.

Which is good. But I think it's harsh to call it a significant minority. Or tbf maybe it's just become more widespread now, not back then. Eg more people watched boxing at recent Olympics, and questioned how a person could win a medal in the women's category . I think all women really should be interested in the trans debate, and how that affects women, their rights and freedoms.

Hmm… I think now’s more the time to recognise that MN somehow managed to find a balance between the enormous pressure not to be seen as harbouring “transphobes” whilst allowing us space to speak and organise here, and also to have the courage to speak the truth in real life.

We’ve come a long way from the days when we couldn’t use correct sex pronouns for Li* Mad* (I still feel that’s like saying Voldemort out loud), or say autogynaephilia, or “women don’t have penises”.

I’m uncomfortable, to say the least with the permabanning, that happened. However, I’ve seen a post on here recently from someone who says she was banned twice for gender heresy but has a new account - so perhaps there’s some leniency behind the scenes (or people are more tech savvy than me…).

I remember Spartacus and what a pivotal moment that was, but I also remember mumsnet being the ONLY place we could talk about this. I remember joining the secret GC Facebook group after being vetted on mumsnet and finding a huge community of women many of whom I met in person, joining other women to help organise events and meetings. None of that would have happened without mumsnet, we wouldn't have found each other. I truly believe a lot of the gains we made in this country stemmed from women talking and linking up on mumsnet.

Mumsnet made monumental mistakes and has owned them like a boss with ovaries of titanium.

Arm chair nay sayers would have simply folded or not found a path to truth (la leche ligue anyone? Or any facebook groups, take your pick.)

I’ve not been at the forefront of all this (but have been involved in smaller ways) and been very thankful for the FWR section at times when sheer madness has been everywhere else. MN had difficult decisions to make at a time when nobody knew how things would play out in the long term. I am grateful to the site for walking that line rather than banning discussion full stop.

Was Possie Parker not banned? There’s been censorship numerous times, like saying the covid jabs don’t stop you getting covid. Just like real life I suppose.

I’m so grateful to the women who took on the case the amount of abuse they received must’ve been difficult. I know when I said something on a facebook group within my industry. I got someone messaging me and threatening me with their partner who’s a police officer she’s lesbian. I got her removed from the group by the man who runs it, she was doing this to others too or getting associates to let her know if something GC was said. Many women supported transgender laws and attacked and threatened other women.

Im in absolute awe of the strength of women such as J K Rowling. This has not been an easy battle for them, not fashionable like the apartheid in South Africa in the 1980s.

When you are working in a controversial area, there will always be mistakes- otherwise you are playing it safe.
They could have shut the discussion down completely. They could have adopted ‘anything goes’, which I suspect would have had the effect of putting people off as robust stepped over the line to cruel.
The line they held has wiggled painfully over the years, but I’d call that success- with mistakes, but still success.

And it’s worth remembering that bans generally weren’t for opinions held, but for breaking guidelines.

Arguing the toss with mods never ends well, no matter how right you are and how wrong the mods are.

It got heated. People overstepped. People were removed. It was awful.

Agreed with PP. I'm grateful for the space here.

Does this group still exist?

I think it's easy to forget the pogrom-like pressure of the very dark times. Almost everyone capitulated, and I too felt despair at MN's seemingly flimsy defence of women's rights. It certainly added to my confusion - am I really wrong in my belief that men cannot be women?

But that said, they were the first, and until recently, one of the very few places that would allow dissent to the national group think.

They also had to find a way through the darkness and learn along the way. But learn they did!

From acorns, mighty oaks grow. MN's contribution to yesterday's success is considerable. How else could these women have found each other?

Not via Twitter, Reddit, Facebook or work that is for sure.

It is not a criticism but a reminder of the persistence of the courageous, in spite of barriers even on MN, to speak up for females when all around TRAs were gaining traction.

We must never forget the past.

It’s been a journey and I think Mumsnet has been a hugely valuable forum in exposing the contradictions, issues, holes, and strengthening the argument to create the armour necessary to drive this right decision. I’m so pleased. Without Mumsnet, would this have happened?

Who have been validated and agreed with by the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom.

What have you done?

Proud millennial woman here, what about you?

That particular time is when for the first time ever I had a pst deleted and I remember well the threat of being banned. I also remember Magdalen Berns very well and thought she was brilliant and sadly the world lost such a wonderful person when she died. This ruling is not before time.

PP was banned for other things. She was ungovernable to be fair!

Yes but it's gone quiet now - women took their campaigning IRL :)

I do think criticism of Mumsnet is well deserved. But considering how infiltrated so many online spaces and groups were with gender zealots (Facebook, Twitter, Reddit etc), I get that it was a difficult task trying to moderate while fending off vindictive zealots. And some of the moderators themselves were also gender zealots!

The UK doesn't have the sort of robust free speech framework compared to the USA, for example. I'm sad so many women were kicked off or banned, and plenty of us had to play smart and change our words to get around stupid rules, but it's a testament to how canny we are that we still managed to make our arguments and draw in lots of new women lurking and reading our intelligent discussions.

There's been a marked change and evolution in the conversations and moderation over the years. Posters can definitely speak a lot more freely. We made it through to the other side and peaked a whole load of new people and brought them along with us.

What a journey it's been!! 💜🤍💚