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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ireland

11 replies

SuperSleepyBaby · 16/04/2025 18:09

Does the UK supreme court ruling of what a women means have any implications for Ireland?

i know Ireland is a separate county with separate laws but we follow UK precedents in some cases i think?

We often seem to copy other countries too!

OP posts:
ClioMuse · 16/04/2025 18:12

I'm Irish living in Scotland so currently in full celebration mode. I can only hope there is a campaign to reinstate sex rather than gender in key legislation. Ireland has gone backwards in terms of women's rights. We can hopefully take inspiration from what happened in the UK today.

Cosmosforbreakfast · 16/04/2025 18:25

Also Irish and living in Scotland. Today's ruling has made me a little less worried for my daughter's future. I can only hope that Ireland will follow suit. The situation with the likes of 'Barbie Kardashian' just shows how much women's rights are under attack there.

MarieDeGournay · 16/04/2025 18:36

The extra hurdle in Ireland is that our equality legislation was changed so it only uses the word 'gender' and not 'sex' - how you can rewrite legislation retrospectively to change its intent and function is beyond me, but that's what they did😡
So we don't have the exceptions that UK law allowed for single sex to mean single sex in certain limited cases, a GRC here changes your legal sex full stop, to exceptions.

Well done to FWS! We have a steep hill to climb to get to the same place..

BTW there is already a thread called 'Ireland' which is relevant:
Ireland | Mumsnet

Ireland | Mumsnet

Reading about the Sandi Peggy case and the various issues that have arisen in Scotland - the rape crisis centre, secret cameras in mixed sex toilets i...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5281281-ireland

Genesis1v27 · 16/04/2025 18:42

The UK ruling won't have any direct effect in Ireland, and the Equality/Equal Status Acts in both jurisdictions differ in a key point at issue in the UK case. Basically (as I understand things), the UK act specifies sex, whereas the Irish acts refers to gender, a more nebulous term and concept. If a case were taken in Ireland, though, the arguments and ultimate judgement in the UK case would be very useful and could be persuasive. Hopefully.

DeanElderberry · 16/04/2025 19:51

The outcome of the case was reported on the RTÉ radio news.

That was a big deal - RTÉ never ever ever addresses or discusses gender questions. Maybe they'll have to now.

Genesis1v27 · 16/04/2025 20:01

The give it a lot of coverage on the website:

https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2025/0416/1507951-uk-court-gender/
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2025/0416/1508063-uk-gender-woman/
https://www.rte.ie/news/uk/2025/0416/1508061-reaction-to-uk-sex-ruling/

The reaction page mainly quoted TENI originally, now they also quote The Countess.

AnSolas · 16/04/2025 21:03

No as the laws are very different.

The Irish EU test case ruling was on the same basis as the UK but the solution was different.

The Irish laws originally used the word sex for womens rights and pregnancy protection and abortion and prisons and then swapped to gender for the word sex in some places

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2000/act/8/section/3/enacted/en/html#sec3

(2) As between any two persons, the discriminatory grounds (and the descriptions of those grounds for the purposes of this Act) are:

(a) that one is male and the other is female (the “gender ground”),

And the Gender Recognition Act 2015 makes a total dogs dinner of the words sex and gender.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/25/enacted/en/print

Effect of gender recognition certificate generally

18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

Which is why Ireland ended up with the male child rapist producing a GRC and being sent to the purpose built Womens prison in Dublin and then moved to Limerick. The women prisoners were used as social interactions tools to avoid the State being guilty of torture of the male inmate untill a second male with a GRC was also sent to the womens system.

If that law is valid being female and wanting an abortion and has a GRC is not covered under the 2018 abortion act she and anybody involved in the abortion is risking 14 years jail time

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2018/act/31/section/2/enacted/en/html#sec2

Definitions

2. In this Act—

“foetus”, in relation to a pregnancy, means an embryo or a foetus during the period of time commencing after implantation in the uterus of a woman and ending on the complete emergence of the foetus from the body of the woman;

“termination of pregnancy”, in relation to a pregnant woman, means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of a foetus;

“woman” means a female person of any age.

Offences

23. (1) It shall be an offence for a person, by any means whatsoever, to intentionally end the life of a foetus otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(2) It shall be an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument, apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used or employed with intent to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether it is intended to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to a pregnant woman in respect of her own pregnancy.

(4) It shall be an offence for a person to aid, abet, counsel or procure a pregnant woman to intentionally end, or attempt to end, the life of the foetus of that pregnant woman otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

(6) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

(7) Nothing in subsection (4) shall operate to prevent or restrict access to services lawfully carried out in a place outside the State.

And yet the Constitution has the word woman and mother which would have to be defined as female citizens

THE FAMILY

ARTICLE 41

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

2 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

And the citizens voted to keep the provision :

https://www.referendum.ie/archive/referendum-on-the-fortieth-amendment-of-the-constitution-care-bill-2023/

You are being asked, in this referendum, if you agree with the proposal –
to delete the following section from Article 41 of the Constitution:
“2 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.
2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.”
and
to insert the following Article after Article 42A of the Constitution:
“Care
Article 42B
The State recognises that the provision of care, by members of a family to one another by reason of the bonds that exist among them, gives to Society a support without which the common good cannot be achieved, and shall strive to support such provision.”

Gender Recognition Act 2015

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/25/enacted/en/print

SuperSleepyBaby · 17/04/2025 18:06

how will Sinn Fein manage this issue as they are in both jurisdictions.

see this:
https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/sinn-fein-accused-of-flip-flopping-after-health-spokesman-apologises-to-trans-community-over-comments-on-supreme-court-case-5089778

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 17/04/2025 18:20

SuperSleepyBaby · 17/04/2025 18:06

Interesting! Sinn Féin are as TWAW as the rest of the major parties on paper, but I suspect that on the backbenches and in the constituencies, less so.
Cullinane probably reacted as a normal person and then was reminded about the party line.
As a poster said - maybe on the other 'Ireland' thread? so you could now be a male in Newry and a female in Dundalk...

Oh what a tangled web etc. Legal fictions like men-becoming-women with a GRC are a recipe for ridiculous situations. Full marks to the UK Supreme Court for seeing that and calling it out as a source of confusion and injustice.

AnSolas · 17/04/2025 18:34

MarieDeGournay · 17/04/2025 18:20

Interesting! Sinn Féin are as TWAW as the rest of the major parties on paper, but I suspect that on the backbenches and in the constituencies, less so.
Cullinane probably reacted as a normal person and then was reminded about the party line.
As a poster said - maybe on the other 'Ireland' thread? so you could now be a male in Newry and a female in Dundalk...

Oh what a tangled web etc. Legal fictions like men-becoming-women with a GRC are a recipe for ridiculous situations. Full marks to the UK Supreme Court for seeing that and calling it out as a source of confusion and injustice.

The Irish GR act section 11 says that a person with a non-Irish GRC can apply for an Irish GRC so by default the Irish State via the Minister of the day can refuse to recognise a UK GRC.
Section 21 of the UK act clearly says the same about an Irish GRC.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 19/04/2025 10:43

On the SF question, the EA - and therefore this Supreme Court ruling - doesn't cover Northern Ireland. There's a separate set of.equality legislation here.

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