Any thoughts on fifth wave feminism?

[WhyThatsDelightful]

Just that…

"The 5th wave of what was once called feminism maintains a focus on encouraging, embracing & celebrating male tenderness, male gentility. The essential positive qualities of masculinity, congratulating them to the same extent that the negative masculine traits are lamented & condemned. A support system of the so-called divine feminine carefully observing & offering critique to the not-yet divine masculine qualities in anyone."

I found this description of 5th wave feminism, is this what you understand it to be OP?

What on earth does that have to do with feminism? It’s not an ‘ism’ of any kind, and has nothing to do with women’s liberation.

this just looks like a helpful leaflet about mothering boys.

Well isn't this just full circle, bit like trans - rights activism which makes the wishes and feelings of the male paramount?

Is 4th wave feminism over? What was it?

Here's where my previous quote and the one below come from.

https://medium.com/@rooves/5th-wave-feminism-94128e81028a

"A 5th wave has already begun to roll in, & it is as heavy & wide as the ocean itself.
In contrast to the 4th waves scorched-Earth mentality toward broken men, the 5th wave, as i have heard it expressed by femme-identifying people in various cities & of various ages, is a return to the nature/nurture ways of old. A focus on healing, not only men but anyone who has acquired unhealthy habits & lamentable behaviors, any ‘toxicity’ as the 4th wave torch-bearers so flippantly named anyone who was struggling with the problems of anger, addiction, & anything deemed socially unsavory."

The 5th wave of what was once called feminism maintains a focus on encouraging, embracing & celebrating male tenderness, male gentility.

If that's what 5th wave feminism is, it isn't feminism. Firstly it centres men, not women. Secondly it seems to consign feminism to history with its "what was once called feminism". Thirdly it sounds like patriarchal, religious bullshit about women's role in society.

I'm cool with banging that good old 2nd Wave Feminism drum, and to keep the golden thread that's always been there through the 80, 90s and beyond, till now.

Golden thread second waver, that's me.

Second waver here. But at the tail end of the collapse vis a vis spare rib.

But i always thought our biology was relevant and always saw that as women we were mothers and potential mothers, sisters aunts etc, and that is where our power must lay.

Feminism is a nebulous concept now. Maybe always has been.

The fifth wave belongs to us on here not the see you next Tuesday, women who earn a shed load and have no concept of real womens lives.

How can it be feminism if it's all about men?

So high earning women can't be feminists?

Jesus H Christ, and I thought 4th wave feminism was all about the menz.

If the manview miffs (anagram)

Seems like they didn't understand that the fifth rule of misogyny wasn't an instruction on how to be a feminist

1. Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

femme-identifying people

Ah,. No wonder it's All About the Men. Again.

That's not any wave of feminism.

I suppose to put a less weird fuzzy spin on it, it's saying that rather than focusing on men negatively in terms of their interactions with women, it wants to encourage men to have positive relations with women?

Which is fine enough I guess but maybe a bit thin for a whole "wave".

These waves do not exist.

this is just lazy MSM wanting to just make generalisation.

The 2nd Wave as it was called by the media was different in that it had the concept of a Women's Liberation Movement.

Since then the media and academics have waffled on about this or that wave, or equally lazy promoted individual women who happened to have decided they have enough insight to write a book. None of which actually reflects what was going on.

If you are really interested you would be setting up oral history projects in different areas and find out what if any women actually did.

Writing stuff, and commentating isn't about anything other than an individuals personal opinion.

eg look at this description of waves. https://www.feministsinthecity.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-feminist-waves

Feminism or women's activism is not to be found in in essay's that wouldn't get the writer any marks in a secondary school.

If interested why not asking women on FWR what is the centre of their feminist practice. ie what do they actively do, as opposed to having an opinion.

If anything if there ever were waves they have all been submerged by virtual media chit chat.

(And of course hopelessly euro and us centric!)

I remember back in 2018 going to look to see what I could find on fourth wave feminism after a discussion here about waves.

i found a small piece on wiki and someone who’d done a PhD or something like that describing how internet access was allowing women to meet online and discuss feminism and then was leading to action. And that was the difference about this age of feminism. Which would certainly make sense re mumsnet and FWR. And all that’s come from that. The #metoo movement etc.

however, within the year the whole thing had been rewritten and was a mashup of intersectional stuff and TWAW.

so I agree that the waves aren’t really useful or helpful though it’s pertinent to note that ever since the second wave, men have attempted to be included in some way or another. As with this one.

I also think describing movements like this can only be done retrospectively, decades afterwards.

my understanding of radical feminism is that their criticism of gender stereotypes extended to males / boys from the pov of they’re as damaging for men as for women, particularly as those male stereotypes harm women by proxy.

I hadn’t read that when I posted @IwantToRetireand it’s interesting to see that it mostly lines up. I wasn’t aware about the start of third wave feminism however.

the final paragraphs around analysing via the long view are certainly bang on.

I studied history though and all this is to do with how history methodology interprets the past, bias, through different lenses, facts v heresy, opinions, perspectives etc. history itself is prone to many different interpretations. In 100 years, the last 100 years may be viewed very differently in terms of feminism to how we see it now. Undoubtedly the internet will have a huge impact.

I won’t be surprised to see many attempts to float waves of feminism that favour/ include men over the next few decades.

I do think, though, that there’s increased interest and knowledge in female physical health and fitness for long term health and bone density etc. And being unique to women, coming through from sports science, which is finally catching up for women, that is filtering through to the general population. Irrespective of the issues there with TW.

we gen x ers are suddenly all all about hrt / or not and doing it naturally and resistance training. The internet makes it easier to include many more people. The 70 year old woman who only started lifting at 65, doing pull ups in the park feels like an increasingly common viral reel I see…..

After reading the medium article I’m happy to run this up the flag pole. I would rather this approach that partners with men to move forward than one that alienates everyone while promoting Only Fans as female empowerment.

‘The 5th wave of what was once called feminism maintains a focus on encouraging, embracing & celebrating male tenderness, male gentility. The essential positive qualities of masculinity, congratulating them to the same extent that the negative masculine traits are lamented & condemned. A support system of the so-called divine feminine carefully observing & offering critique to the not-yet divine masculine qualities in anyone."

What a load of old bollocks. Literally.

It’s not that high earning women can’t be feminists, but I suspect feminism has had a tendency to be driven by dominant women who have time to spare.

It has therefore, to an extent been driven in a direction that doesn’t benefit and prioritize young mothers, for example. The idea that we could simply drop our children off in a nursery and have high flying careers like our husbands has proven to bring its own problems.

Feminism was never going to be easy as women were trying to push their way into a world dominated by men, based around the nuclear family (where traditional roles are hard to shift) rather than being able to set up a society that genuinely sees women, in all their roles, perhaps as different but equal.

I’m not sure, without massive and radical change, whether equality can be achieved. It’s certainly not going to happen in my lifetime, though I thought it might when I was young. High earning women certainly have a place, but that shouldn’t be to the detriment of those who want other things.

Is it a stream of ‘gentle’ inspired feminism?

Sorry that came out wrong, i think feminism only holds together as a group regarding womens rights on here, in the big bad world our interests diverge somewhat depending on socio economic circumstances.

"encouraging, embracing & celebrating male tenderness, male gentility. The essential positive qualities of masculinity, congratulating them to the same extent that the negative masculine traits are lamented & condemned. A support system of the so-called divine feminine carefully observing & offering critique to the not-yet divine masculine qualities in anyone."

This has been niggling at me since I read it - I couldn't remember where I'd previously encountered exactly this sentiment.

I have now worked it out. Louisa May Alcott's Little Men, published 1871. It's pure 19th century civilising-influence-of-women drivel.