Scots prisons should offer taxpayer-funded wardrobe with women's clothing for transgender prisoners says watchdog

[SeethingHarpie]

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scots-prisons-should-offer-taxpayer-35025435

How on earth can people in positions of authority and (supposed) safeguarding make such decisions and recommendations? I seriously do not understand the priorities - it is apparently more important that TIMs get access to women’s clothes and spaces than it is to offer basic human rights and safety to women?

Fuck That for an idea.

As so often, the first reply nails it.

I'd go in the opposite direction for all males in female prisons they should all be wearing jumpsuits.

Do all prisoners not already wear a basic prison uniform? Why should anybody get special treatment, just because of their personal beliefs - beliefs which, interestingly, don't extend to not committing serious crimes?

Jesus wept, where do they get these ideas from. They should get the same as every one else. No more or less.

Female prisoners don't wear uniform.

Am not sure with males- they definitely have to wear it outside the prison, for example if they are going to a hospital appointment but in the prison there is a mix, I suspect it boils down to how much money they have.

Under Armour seems the most popular brand with the men.

What do prisoners usually do for clothing? Are other prisoners allowed wigs? I know you can send clothes to someone newly convicted but not after that. Do women prisoners get new bras if required (say on a long sentence).

What an absolute load of old bollocks

Well, I've heard it all now!

My exact response after reading the OP was
"Fuck off".

I see I'm not alone in my thinking.

This is discrimination against women. Men get preferential treatment.

How do women in prison get their clothes?
Just do the same for this person, surely?

If this flies, couldn't women in prison start applying for a taxpayer wardrobe too, if they lose/ gain weight or whatever? Or (in the spirit of fairness) do they already get that?

What's the problem? They're welcome to women's clothing, like what I'm wearing today - jeans, t-shirt, jumper...

Women can wear second hand, badly fitted, slightly stained clothes too...

... something tells me this isn't what is being considered.

FFS!! From the Scottish Daily Express article:

"Like prisons in England, SPS HQ may want to consider creating a central repository for items such as wigs, underwear etc where officers can request difficult to source items."

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scots-prisons-should-offer-taxpayer-35025435

So somewhere in England there is already a taxpayer-funder "central repository for items such as wigs, underwear etc where officers can request difficult to source items." for men in prison who claim to be women!

There should not be any need for this because there is a "Prisoner Retail" policy which states:

7.2 Transsexual prisoners must be allowed access to catalogues and specialist products including clothing and cosmetics.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5f4816eee90e07298ea3c868/psi-23-2013-prisoner-retail.pdf

I think for "transsexual" we can read "transgender" as there is no separate general operational policy for "transsexual" prisoners:

The care and management of individuals who are transgender
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

A Prisoner's Guide to Trans Rights
Dec 2023

Access to clothing and items to express your gender identity.

The Operational Guidance is very clear about the right to access clothing and other items you need in order to express your gender identity. It states:
“transgender individuals must be allowed to wear clothing consistent with their identified gender. This may be subject to risk, operational and security assessments. Items to support gender identity should be obtained from an equivalent opposite-gender prison.”

The Operational Guidance also recognises the important of prosthetics and states:
“transgender individuals sometimes use special garments or prosthetics to help them
present in a more feminine/masculine appearance. They can be crucial to their appearance and self-conference in effectively living and being accepted in the gender they identify with. Establishments are encouraged to provide such items, but only after sufficient risk assessments have been made on the items and the Governor is satisfied that it does not compromise security or safety……

If there any difficulties with an individual retaining special garments or prosthetic items in their possession, advice should be sought from a gender identity clinic or mental health team before any decision is made. All decisions are to be recorded.”

Practically this means that you should be able to have access to gender affirming clothing and items from the prison, subject to a risk assessment and security issues. One way of obtaining the items is to ask your personal officer to provide you with a catalogue of items that would be available in either a male/female prison. You should then be able to order these items on a canteen sheet. If you have difficulties in ordering products, you should follow the complaints process as described below.

Full document:

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/632cd0d1baa2223bff9113e0/t/65d5006f7186825c566cd264/1708458097554/PAS-TRANSGENDER-TOOLKIT-2023.pdf

What Can Prisoners Buy in Jail

"Prisoners purchase these items through a ‘prison account,’ which is funded by their earnings from prison work or money sent by family and friends. The system ensures that prisoners can manage their funds and buy items they need, though all purchases are subject to prison regulations and checks."

https://prisonguide.co.uk/what-can-prisoners-buy-in-jail/

General info about prison clothing:

What prison clothing is provided in the UK
https://prisonguide.co.uk/what-prison-clothing-is-provided-in-the-uk/

UK Prison Clothing Rules and Guidelines
https://prisonguide.co.uk/prison-clothing/

Not sure about this plan to reduce tax-payer spending on that "central repository" of women's clothes for men in prison.

Doncaster jail sets up women's clothing exchange for transgender prisoners
18 Aug 2023

HMP Doncaster in Marshgate has reportedly set up a ‘clothing dump’ behind bars where women can leave clothes for trans prisoners.
The plan was disclosed in a letter by a transgender inmate to the national prison newspaper Inside Time.

It read: 'Hello everyone, I am a transgender prisoner currently serving time in HMP Doncaster.

"So often I see the men in here swapping clothing and it gave me an idea.

"Coming into prison, I had only the clothing on my back. And as a woman, I couldn’t really benefit from the clothes swap culture as I am in a men’s prison and need certain female items.

'I pitched an idea to the Equalities Department, as I am the Equalities Rep for my wing, where we could set up a clothing dump for transgender prisoners coming into the prison and who may not have much, if anything. I donated some of my own.
'The Equalities Department approved the idea.

"Enthusiastically. I’m writing to ask everyone reading this if you are able to donate any female items of clothing to this clothing dump here at Doncaster.

"We would very much appreciate it.

Some other info in the same article:

A HM Chief Inspector of Prisons report and survey last year estimated around 5 per cent of the same jail population identified as transgender or transsexual, with the report showing there were 168 legally-male trans women prisoners in England and Wales.

Six of them were in women's prisons and the rest in men's jails last year, while a further 11, who are in men's institutions, legally changed their gender through a gender recognition certificate.

----

Just wondering how many of the "women" in HMP Doncaster are sex offenders?

HMP Doncaster sex offender rise 'to reduce violence'
12 October 2017

Hundreds of alleged or convicted sex offenders have been placed in a prison to tackle high levels of violence, a report has found.

Inspectors said the "deliberate policy" was aimed at "stabilising" the population at privately-run HMP Doncaster.

This had been done without adequate measures to support the men and the risk they pose, the report said.

Serco said staff had worked hard to address complex challenges.

The Prison Officers Association said increasing the number of sex offenders in jails could help reduce violence because they largely had a less volatile temperament towards staff and other inmates compared to prisoners with non-sexual offences.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-41585901

A couple of those "less volatile" HMP Doncaster sex offenders:

Muscle-bound sex offender held fellow inmate hostage in terrifying two-hour ordeal at Doncaster prison
28 Feb 2024
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/crime/samuel-frost-muscle-bound-sex-offender-held-fellow-inmate-hostage-demanded-to-speak-to-south-yorkshire-prison-governor-4529390

Doncaster sex offender jailed for attempted rape and strangulation
16 Dec 2024

A Doncaster sex offender who strangled a woman before attempting to rape her has been jailed after an investigation by South Yorkshire Police’s Protecting Vulnerable People (PVP) unit.

Francis O'Connor brutally assaulted his victim by grabbing her throat and putting his legs around her neck, before later trying to rape her as she slept.

The victim bravely managed to fight him off and get to safety, but not before 30-year-old O'Connor grabbed her throat again in another terrifying assault.

O'Connor, of HMP Doncaster, then fled the scene in the victim's car and stole £300 of cash from her before officers located him and arrested him.

(Why was he out of jail in the first place??)

https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/courts/doncaster-sex-offender-jailed-for-attempted-rape-and-strangulation-4910998

Well, jeans and T-shirts are women’s clothes. They can have those. Though I suspect they are not the kind of ‘women’s clothes’ they are thinking of…

absolutely bloody ridiculous.

Job lot of pink leggings it is then

central repository for items such as wigs, underwear etc where officers can request difficult to source items

Difficult to source items.

If trans women are women what is it they need to wear that's 'difficult to source'?! What's wrong with Tesco Extra? Or the local charity shop?

What exactly is it that prisons are finding 'difficult to source' unless... It's not something that women typically need / use.

If a transwoman is in a male prison (as they should be) I'm fine with them having access to some clothes tbh. Don't feel the need to stick the boot in - loss of liberty is the punishment.

I think it's best to focus on the actual issue (women's safety and diginity) - jumping with outrage because the daily express told you to is a dangerous path to go down.

Yup, I agree with this. So long as they are in a men’s prison and are treated as well (or as badly) as all the other men, I don’t really care. If tax payers provide clothes for men that can’t afford them for one reason or another, then the same should be provided for men who claim they are women. No special privileges should be given. If they want items such as wigs and make-up, they should find the money from what they earn. I bet the women don’t get extra for those things.

Though I would add that it does still suggest that the prison watchdogs are still unreasonably captured by transactivism and tending towards privilege for those prisoners, which is more problematic.

My feeling is that it does matter what clothes men wear, and that demands for feminine coded clothes such as pretty blouses or female-specific items such as bras are disrespectful.
Any pretence that a man is a woman is either a manifestation of mental illness or it's them seeing what they can get away with. In the first case, they need clear boundaries to be set, not encouragement in their delusions. In the second case, they need clear boundaries to be set, not being allowed to take the piss.
Mumsnet could you for the love of sanity not delete this post? It's ludicrous that we can't freely and fully discuss this matter.

what is women’s clothing? I wear mostly jeans, t shirts and hoodies. Maybe shorts. Size 6-8. I’m guessing this is what they mean?

Women wear their own clothes a lot of the time. You are supposed to turn up to sentencing with a bag of approved clothing from a list. Essentially joggers, shorts, pjs, T-shirts and jumpers. There was a thread on this recently because female prisoners have to handwash their own knickers and someone hadn’t packed so was doing her solo pair her every night. In the male estate they are laundered with everything else.

It does sort of remind me of the bloke who transitioned got put in the female estate 😡who then wanted to be a a baby. Personally I think it’s bonkers. The phrase that stuck out is prisons are very attuned to human rights at the moment so requests are given proper consideration. Female prisoners wear joggers and t shirts too. The difference is cut because women are shaped differently and a bit shorter.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/trans-murderer-prison-identify-baby-26669658.amp