Womb Transplants

[JumpingPumpkin]

Just heard the news on R4 of a successful pregnancy from a womb transplant in this country. Paid for by a charity “womb transplant U.K.”. Finished the report with a question as to the ethics and “it gives women an alternative to surrogacy or adoption”.

This just seems unethical to me.

It's certainly not life saving for half the fertilised embryo/foetus/baby. 50 percent of which won't survive the pregnancy.

If it does become a more established procedure then it's likely to cause the same level of organ harvesting as other transplant surgeries do. And it will be poor, marginalised women who will suffer.

If I’m being ignorant please direct me to any studies that say otherwise because I’d be genuinely interested, but the 50 or so children born so far as a result of this procedure are perfectly healthy as far as I can find online? I agree that it’s early days to say this conclusively though and we can’t 100% rule out problems showing themselves later.

No-one is attacking women. Posters are asking reasonable questions that should be asked.

Fwiw I'm not sure that organ donor from a live donor is a good thing, regardless of the specific organ donated. I don't know if it's right. I think it's a very very grey area. My gut feeling is that it's so open to exploitation that we shouldn't allow it.

Before we had modern surrogacy we had the homes for unmarried mother's where poor teenage girls were sent, providing a steady supply of newborn babies. Was that ok? Using the bodies of those girls to treat infertility?

It is obvious that this a very emotive and difficult topic for you, understandably so. But these questions still need to be asked.

Of the 50 children who survived the pregnancy there is no data about health outcomes. One study of 8 children has shown them to be healthy enough. The 50 foetuses/embryos and babies who did not survive the pregnancies all died (or failed to survive) at different stages.

So you have no data to prove that they are healthy in longevity?

Are you of the opinion that extreme procedures such as these should continue until there is data collected to prove there is no long term health issues? Is that what you believe?

What about the high risk of premature infants and the known issues that they face long term? This is known already. Is that not sufficient to make a case that perhaps it is correct to discuss the ramifications of this procedure, one that is not life saving as you said?

If these transplants are not life saving, why is there comparisons to life saving transplants made.

I have seen corneal transplants mentioned. If a uterus transplant doesn’t assist a person live independently, without living with a significant handicap that means they are dependent on others because of their impaired sight, why are corneal transplants being discussed as if they are comparative procedures?

When you say only around half of all attempts produce a live birth; I didn't think there would have been enough data to come to that conclusion? I thought pregnancy following womb implantation was a very new thing and that would there be limited data sets? I don't think it's something I would do either but I say that from the privilege of having to successfully have a child. I can't say what I'd do if I was in a very different, desparate position.

I think it's really dangerous to frame discussion of ethics as 'attacking'.

What is wrong with exploring the ethics of this situation? Surely society as a whole is better off when we share thoughts and experiences in order to increase our understanding?

If something is ethical, no harm in discussing that, is there? Unless you're concerned that maybe, just maybe, it isn't, and that discussion will highlight that?

You do have to wonder about the motives of people who try to shut down discussions.

I'm so tired of the emotional hyperbole.

It does depend on the individual and also, your definition of a 'normal daily life'. I don't have children and have been infertile since my total hysterectomy, but it doesn't affect my daily life at all - I realise I am fortunate not to mind it.

I understand some people suffer deep psychological impacts from infertility; however, people can suffer deep psychological impacts for all kinds of reasons, and there will always be the question of whether (for example) depression is actually caused by a woman's infertility, or whether it's an illness in itself, and would not necessarily be cured by a successful IVF/womb transplant; and should it be the depression or other mental health issue that is treated, rather than an underlying physical condition?

It's the desperation that makes the whole experimentation so unethical.

I suicidally depressed from infertility caused by endometriosis. All I wanted was a baby to love. Endometriosis took my love of horse riding through chronic pain, it nearly destroyed my marriage, I nearly lost my job. I lived in constant distress. Once my pain improved after several surgeries and I got back on my horse, my sickness record at work didn't improve because I was still off work a lot due to constant emotional breakdowns and just not being able to cope with all the babies around me, pregnant colleagues, everyone is so fucking insensitive about infertility to the point of cruelty it simply can't be ignorance alone. I felt so empty I just wanted to die.

Infertility can be life threatening in the sense that it is known that some people commit suicide due to infertility. It is why some infertile people call themselves survivors. The fact that that some people aren't bothered about having children and therefore don't mind being infertile does not invalidate these experiences or these people's pain.

After 5 cycles of IVF I finally have my daughter. She is the light of my life. My marriage has never been better. My work attendance record is near perfect. I'm just. So. Happy! Certainly not depressed anymore and dealing with chronic pain is a hell of a lot easier when you're not miserable all the time.

So no. I shouldn't have just been treated for depression and infertility treatment withheld. And quite frankly I don't believe that anyone who can't even grasp that level of emotional suffering has the right to dictate that that suffering shouldn't be alleviated for others on the grounds of ethics which really aren't an issue anyway.

Organ donation is already a thing. Fertility treatment is already a thing. It is known that women who have had organ transplants and are on anti rejection drugs can safely get pregnant and give birth with no harm coming to their baby. So I can't understand why everyone is up in arms that the babies will be harmed by this when all the separate components of this are already known to be safe and they are just coming together in one miracle procedure. Which alleviated pain for one woman, was given freely by another woman, and gave life to a little girl who is perfectly healthy.

It almost comes across as spiteful and judging for judgings sake.

I'm not against womb transplants in principle, but I don't think they should be funded by the NHS - I know that, so far, they haven't been NHS-funded, but my concern would be that it would end up like that. As I said originally, they should be privately funded or could be charitably/altruistically funded - as long as the charity or fundraising was solely, openly and explicitly for that purpose.

Very well articulated @Tuttifrutticutiepie I agree

I completely agree and I’m so glad you got your happy ending 🩷

Thank you, I don't know what would have happened to me if we didn't get our happy ending. I may well be unemployed and homeless as a result or perhaps not even here. The insensitivity towards infertility in our society is brutal and disgusting. And it's always displayed most by those who had their children easily or by those who don't want children at all. As if they have any frame of reference!?

I feel the same way. Cycle 4 here, first
time we’ve even made it to transfer, and some people will never even try to understand just how difficult it is to put one foot in front of the other. Usually the people who conceived accidentally or at the speed of light. I’m incredibly blessed that we can just about afford to pay privately for our treatment. Fertility treatment being unavailable on the NHS and a woman who can’t afford it having to suffer like this is a sickening thought.

I wholeheartedly agree, we spent 35k on our IVF all in all, gifted to us by my father as an advance inheritance of sorts as he would rather see us happy now than rich and childless when he's dead in 30 years. I thank my lucky stars every night for my daughter, and I know how incredibly privileged we are that my dad could give us that money. As you say, the thought that some couples don't even get to try because they don't have the funds is heartbreaking. We have friends who have run out of money and still don't have a child, my heart breaks every time I see them because I know the agony they are feeling and I can barely breathe under the weight of their grief knowing I can't do anything to help them.

People often parrot you learn to live with it or you get over itm simply, you don't. There are communities of childless women still feeling grief in their 70s, the grief hits a second time when others are having grandchildren and they still have empty nests. Gateway women is a community that discussed the lifelong grief a lot. The fact that anyone who just got a baby easily or even by accident thinks they have any right to comment on childless women getting over it is so disgustingly self centred and cold.

I wish you all the luck in the world for your happy ending. No one deserves this pain ❤️ Like you I ended up just shutting down and putting one foot in front of the other for years. Everyone has something hurtful to say when you're on this journey, I hope yours is nearly over. If you want some support or just want to talk to someone who gets it feel free to pm me x

On a side note, the fact that people think a lifetime of therapy and antidepressants are cheaper than a cycle of IVF is just ridiculous. Everyone should at least get to try once.

The main party being subjected to the higher risk birth to death lifecycle can not consent to either surrogacy or a womb transplant

How?

A couple of us have already clarified but I’ll recap:

Suicidal thoughts, depression, anxiety, time away from work for physical and mental side effects of treatment, financial stress due to the overwhelming cost of treatment, relationship issues, losing friendships as other people have children and you can’t cope, feeling isolated as you can’t join in with daily activities due to the aforementioned money and/or mental health struggles, loneliness, jealousy, feeling like you are climbing Everest every time someone asks you to get out of bed and get dressed.

I’d very happily give my sister a kidney. A liver (given that I have kids and the death rate is higher) would be a difficult decision. A uterus, I’m afraid not - infertility is undoubtedly difficult and very severe for some, but I don’t think that the benefits outweigh the risks to the donor and their dependents. Would I be a surrogate for my sister? Maybe I would - again, it would be a very difficult one and would depend very heavily on whether she would be honest with the child about where they came from.

How can you be so clueless?

The ethics around the treatment do need discussion. There is a significant difference between such an extreme procedure to reduce someone’s distress and an extreme procedure to prevent someone dying or allowing them to live independently such as corneal transplants.

Your silence speaks a thousand words.

Yes, ethics need to be discussed.

But acting as if anti rejection drugs are poison to babies and women will be exploited and coerced and are likely to die from the surgery with the sentiment infertile people should just live with it because it wont kill them and the main drivers will be ego and entitlement is neither fair, or reasonable.

It's a really unpleasant way to speak to or about women in an awful position and the scorn absolutely does come from a place of privilege in not knowing the pain of infertility.