English Blackball Pool Federation

[Signalbox]

The hearing is scheduled for 7th-11th April at Canterbury County Court.

Tribunal Tweets will be following the case…

Live tweeting sessions Abbreviations
J - His Honour Judge Parker
HH - Harriet Haynes, claimant
RW - Robin White, claimant’s barrister
CC - Colman Coyle, claimant's solicitor
EBPF - English Blackball Pool Federation
PT - Paul Thomson, defendant
AG - Anna Goodwin, defendant
SC - Sarah Crowther KC, defendants’ barristers, and
SS - Sapandeep Singh Maini-Thompson
JRL - JR Levins LLP, defendants’ solicitor
JG - James Goodwin, witness for defendant

The original thread has been deleted for “breaking Mumsnet guidelines”. Not sure why but possibly “misgendering” or possibly making it too easy to find the crowdfund @mumsnet it would be good if you could let us know so this thread can stay up. Do we have to pretend that the Claimant is female?

J: I’m not sure I’m following.

Sums it up for me too. Need a pin board and string for who said what when and where and if it even relates to the organisation in the dock.

If we say loudly ‘bundle,bundle,bundle’ could it summon up someone to explain?

Hopefully some of the other witnesses can clarify who was eligible for what and when. It seems weird to have an "open" category that isn't, err, "open".

Has the correct contract been found yet?

This witness neatly explains why they haven't been able to be entirely clear because subject is taboo. Fear of being called bigot. Waiting for IOC guidance.

This guy is doing well I think.

New thing for all of us. We just didn't know how to manage the situation.

Listening to the witness is really highlighting how hard it is for those sporting bodies who want to do the right thing. Especially over the last 5 years when the idea of men in women's sports is a novel concept and the punishment for refusing to allow men to compete is basically cancellation and being called a nazi transphobic bigot. You really have to admire this small organisation for standing their ground.

Yeas, the blackball people, to their credit, have been clear from the start that women's comps are for women only. But the shiny new comps offered by Ultimate Pool offered quite a lot more prize money. As for this amateurs v pros business, maybe it's a lot to do with pool traditionally being, at the top end, more about 'money' matches between individuals (people will play each other for £50k or so; big money!), rather than knock-out comps and leagues, as in snooker. This is what UP wanted to bring in.

Agreed.

That's the crux of it, isn't it? We must never be unfair to men, but unfairness to women... Sheesh, who cares?

<bangs head on wall>

As an aside, this part of MN's message to @Signalbox struck me:

"We continue to host these conversations even though they come with significant challenges, from the moderation resource they require to the impact on our advertising. In return, we ask that users help us keep them within the boundaries of our guidelines."

It just goes to show that the same underlying issues are there, those of unseen monitors who are watching what we say and reporting that which they don't like, and pressure from advertisers who either don't like women speaking out or who are being put under pressure themselves by those who don't like women speaking out.

I'm reading a book on the history of the women's suffrage movement at the moment and it strikes me that when it comes to women speaking/having opinions/campaigning for their rights NOTHING FUCKING CHANGES. We still have to avoid rocking the boat to be tolerated. Different century, same shit.

Hopefully some of the other witnesses can clarify who was eligible for what and when. It seems weird to have an "open" category that isn't, err, "open".

I think this may be a specifically male thing.

Real women can enter men's competitions.

Men who call themselves women insist they can't enter men's competitions.

You see a similar effect with actresses being called "actors".

Whereas it seems you can't call males who call themselves women actors - they have to be "actresses".

Just as inclusion into "female" categories is validating, inclusion into "male" categories is invalidating. So if the inclusion does happen - even if it would happen for a real woman! - they pretend it doesn't.

Do we know how long the case is likely to go on for? Wondering whether to request access

My understanding is all this week.

Instead of replacing the word 'transwomen' with 'women', replace it with 'cheats' and the question of why transwomen weren't consulted on the policy becomes clear.

Okay, they are really DARVOing us now. RW saying that decisions were made without consulting trans people.

Remind me how many decisions/policies/etc across the UK over the past ten years or so that impact on women have been taken/implemented without consulting... women.

This witness is coming across as being a really decent man who is standing up for women.

Good on that man. We need more of that!

Yes. And these are the people who, like most, were live and let live, it's not a big deal. Increasingly TRAs pushing boundaries is making them say no.

We are not permitted to link to crowdfunders - but Help us defend our female Blackball competitions from litigation seems to have acquired a bit of extra support recently.

"The EBPF are a non profit sports federation (NGB) wholly run by volunteers."

Normal people. Being dragged through the courts for trying to protect women's sport. Needing to pay for a legal team including a barrister.

For shame.

I feel like this witness is running circles around RMW.

Using wrong-sex / sex deception pronouns is anti-safeguarding.

For safeguarding, sex matters as male bodied individuals commit 98% of sexual crimes.

Undermining normal English pronouns, which recognise sex, because of a tiny minority of males who want everyone else to pretend they're female also undermines sex based safeguarding.

If all someone hears is the female pronouns they may be deceived into thinking that person is a woman and get into situations that will at best make them uncomfortable. It's really not ok.

For shame, Mumsnet.

And then when the organisation folds opportunity for women is completely wiped out. It's basically if you don't include us we will destroy you.

We already have the case of Andrew/Amy Miller who is a trans identified male who is convicted of abducting and sexually assaulting (repeatedly) a child who he offered a lift to.

The judge stated that his appearing to be female may have contributed to the child getting into the car.

We'll never know if she'd heard Miller referred to as 'she' by anyone prior to this. But it's something to think about, isn't it?

Because we all know the statistics, sex matters for safeguarding so sex deception via pronouns is an issue for safeguarding.

It also makes it impossible to talk about court cases such as this in any meaningful way. This case is about a certain player having a male body and all the advantages that confers when competing against women. So if you use female sex pronouns you're basically showing bias towards one side. Plus it's not the truth, and you're supposed to speak the truth in court.

Frankly pretty fed up of women being sanctioned for telling the truth.

Back to @Cailleach1 's post. My bold.

Cailleach1 · Yesterday 13:10

So, in the female sport, they’d have to discriminate on the basis of sex or on the basis Gender Reassignment.
So, you’d have to discriminate against the entire biological sex category for which the female event was created in order to allow a male with a piece of paper to be admitted if you’re going along with the fiction of people changing sex.
Completely destroy the fairness and opportunity of women and girls in sports.
I think these people are arsonists. I think they are nasty, misogynistic arsonists who target the world of women and girls going about their own business. People who are trying to cobble, and dismantle, the ability of women and girls to fairly and safely negotiate society. All the while pretending it is only self-regarding rights (for the lads, lets face it) which effects nobody else.