Ask for Angela

[ArabellaScott]

Article on the scheme's origins, recent issues with how it has worked in practice, which we've discussed on here before.

The daughter of the woman the scheme is named after tells her story.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd6v1e224x0o

Thank you for posting that, Arabella, I didn’t know there was a real Angela.

I’m appalled he only got 4 years for a crime like that.

I’m still not sure why we need to ask for Angela rather than just ask for help. But I’m reassured that businesses are training staff on how to assist people who need help.

As far as I understand, asking for Angela is seen as more subtle, and therefore less risky than potentially being overheard asking a member of staff for help directly. But the scheme becoming more widely known surely negates what little benefit there may have been from this.

Truthfully, I applaud the sentiment of the scheme. But I think it’s poorly thought out to expect usually young/student staff who usually work in these establishments to be equipped to deal with potentially vulnerable patrons and navigate their potentially aggressive or angered date or partner.

Absolutely, women need to have options for removing themselves from risky situations but I don’t think this is it.

The scheme is well meant but has a fundamental flaw: it can't be simultaneously coded way of asking for help and a universally understood phrase because the two are mutually exclusive.

It would be better to encourage people to ask for help explicitly and train staff in how to respond to requests for help, and to be alert for signs that someone might be in need of help.

Yes, I'm still not entirely sure of the reasoning. I think it means if the woman is in earshot of the man, she can ask.for help without asking for help? Or staff will understand the need for discretion and care? Or maybe just shorthand for a complex situation?

But it had an internal contradiction in that to be useful it has to be understood, and therefore widely understood, which means it can't be a secret.

Angela's story is heartbreaking. The conviction was an outrage.

But I think it’s poorly thought out to expect usually young/student staff who usually work in these establishments to be equipped to deal with potentially vulnerable patrons and navigate their potentially aggressive or angered date or partner.

I think it would be feasible to train staff to take the person to a private area and support them in seeking help - simple options of calling a friend, calling a taxi home or calling the police - because this is largely common sense, it's what you'd do instinctively.

I agree it would be unsafe and unreasonable to expect staff to engage with potentially aggressive and angry people and the only advice should be to call the police, or security for the area, which is probably what they are told anyway in relation to dealing with aggressive patrons, whether or not a vulnerable partner is involved.

I think the scheme can work even if everyone including the abusers know what the code phrase means.

the key thing is that bar staff need the training that if they hear “is Angela here today”, they can immediately organise help and get the person asking to safety. And that is much easier for the asker then having to say “my date is odd and can you do something but I don’t know what to do” and the untrained bar staff don’t know either so nothing happens.

the secrecy is not the key feature, it is the actions that can be triggered by one simple phrase that can make this a useful tool.

Roughly 26 "Anglea" cases a month just in the Wetherspoons pubs since November. Bit depressing there's such demand.

Fair point. But it would rely on good training, and as noted upthread, lots of barstaff are casual, students, etc. Is a nineteen year old girl in her part time evening job really going to be able to deal with a potentially dangerous situation?

Maybe it's a start. Maybe if nothing else it might raise awareness of the issues.

If the secrecy was not the key feature, then the campaign would simply be to ask bar staff for help…

When I worked briefly in a coffee shop, we were told "simply" to call the police if someone asked that. I don't think we were "signed up" to any scheme and afaik no-one used it, but it was known.
Far more problematic for the staff were the creeps who tried to hit on us, so the joke" (which OK I know shouldn't really have been treated as a joke) was that we wanted to ask for Angela every few minutes.

This.

Its a daft scheme that is self defeating.

Noble intentions but it just doesn't work.

I'd never heard of this until I saw something on telly where they tested out it's efficacy.
I hope it's something that can actually work in a reasonably way. Will the bar pay for a taxi for the person? How do they stop them from being harassed outside by the perp who might now be angry if you tried to seek help and he knew.

The scheme is well meant but has a fundamental flaw: it can't be simultaneously coded way of asking for help and a universally understood phrase because the two are mutually exclusive.

Very succinctly and elegantly put.

I would love to hear stories of how it's worked in practice. I don't mean the instances where it's clearly failed because the bar staff don't know what to do, but instances where the bar staff did know what to do, and whether it then worked out well or not.

What is a good way of responding? Ordering a taxi - but how long will that take, and what does the woman do in the meantime? Calling police - but what if that's overkill when the problem is simply that the man is a bit of a creep? Finding a hiding place for the woman - but what if the man starts getting angry and demanding to know where she is? It seems there are potentially all sorts of unintended consequences.

I agree. I and a lot of men I know have heard about Ask for Angela. I don't think it is any more discreet as asking for help. The only people who don't seem to know about it are the people who are supposed to help.

I also agree that some bartenders are young, inexperienced people. I don't know how well equipped they are to deal with vulnerable people. But maybe with training which the article says some bar chains are now making mandatory, this will change.

I worked in a pub a few years ago and we didn't have any training on this. I only know about it from the signs on toilet doors

Not that it matters, but just realised I made it sound like I am a man, which would make my choice of username a bit odd.

I meant I (a woman) and also a lot of men I know have heard of Ask for Angela. So I wonder how discreet it really is

Let’s say Lucy is in the bar with a dodgy bloke and wants to get away. Conversation goes
lucy - can you help me
barstaff - what with? You need directions to the station?
lucy - no, this bloke, he’s a bit …
barstaff - and what …
Lucy - I need to get away
barstaff - call a taxi sweetheart
Lucy - …

here, Lucy would have to be pretty forceful to get the help she needs, which for a shy person in a busy pub, may not work.

if the scheme works as it should, the conversation goes
lucy - is Angela here?
trained barstaff - Angela you say? Come over here and I’ll help you get a taxi. You can wait back here and go out the back so no one sees. You’ll be ok.

this time, the conversation quick and unambiguous.

so the key is training the barstaff. Whether or not dodgy bloke knows the codeword really doesn’t matter.

I agree with others that the intention id well meaning but flawed.
ongoing training in every bar and pub is nigh on impossible to keep up with and can’t be policed.
if it were part of licence conditions to spot signs of vulnerability across the board then it would be more effective and licensees would be more inclined to comply.
certain bars in city centres are renowned for predatory behaviour.

They talked about this scheme on the Jeremy Vine radio 2 show a few months ago.

Someone did a trial at a number of bars and pubs and many staff didn’t know what to do. Despite some of these places having posters up that staff surely could see.

Surely it’s not hard to give staff a few minutes training on what to do? Otherwise why even bother to sign up to the scheme?

I really don't see how it works in practice. It's a great notion, but in reality... Is anyone really going to go up to the bar and say "can I speak to Angela" - you'd feel an absolute pratt and be nervous and awkward in case they didn't know what you meant. It'd be better to use "I need some help" or similar. It's clearer and doesn't make the person asking feel as awkward.

The cynic in me can't help but think there's a bit of a virtue signalling tick box going on when pubs etc slap up these posters.

I'm not surprised by this.

Actually, ironically I've now noticed in my work place there's a new array of posters slapped up with 'ask to speak to Nigel' (it may not be that exact name, but it's a male name) in all public corridors. It says something like "if you're suffering from domestic abuse and feel afraid ask to speak to Nigel and our staff will know you need help" ... It's the first I've heard of it I'm afraid!!! There's been no education session, no email , literally nothing ! So unfortunately if a service user asked to speak to 'Nigel' - I'd probably have gone off to find 'Nigel'.

Unfortunately, with that in mind, I can only conclude it's a virtue signalling exercise.... (Seems like most things are now unfortunately) All mouth and no trousers as the saying goes.

Also the posters are all in public corridors (probably so the inspecting body can see them on their next visit which is ironically due... Right about now !) but the husbands and partners of these women can also read them 🥴

It'd make more sense if they had placed them on the back of toilet doors in the ladies.