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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

University of Sussex fined £585,000 by Office for Students

437 replies

OhBuggerandArse · 25/03/2025 21:34

The inquiry in the wake of Kathleen Stock's experience has finally been completed:

'An English university is set to be fined a record £585,000 over allegations it failed to uphold free speech and academic freedom, in a landmark ruling in the debate over student rights on campus. England’s higher education regulator found “significant and serious breaches” of free speech and governance issues at the University of Sussex, according to a draft press release seen by the Financial Times. The Office for Students press release, to be published on Wednesday, said policies intended to prevent abuse or harassment of certain groups on campus had created “a chilling effect” that might cause staff and students to “self-censor”.'

Sussex 'has reacted furiously...'

https://www.ft.com/content/d39f0db7-877a-4cf3-8c12-dd5581eecd0b?fbclid=IwY2xjawJP_1RleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHVWF1ZXM3cKbxGAvtKfecgeMyAXNae5933M9a3dru0zohKTe7Vk24foIeA_aem_HpdtsUQc6ipMGY9J5AGFWQ

England’s university regulator issues record fine in Sussex free speech case

Policies intended to prevent abuse or harassment of certain groups on campus had created ‘a chilling effect’, OfS says

https://www.ft.com/content/d39f0db7-877a-4cf3-8c12-dd5581eecd0b?fbclid=IwY2xjawJP_1RleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHVWF1ZXM3cKbxGAvtKfecgeMyAXNae5933M9a3dru0zohKTe7Vk24foIeA_aem_HpdtsUQc6ipMGY9J5AGFWQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
EasternStandard · 28/03/2025 12:50

I’m just hearing about this on Times radio. I haven’t really followed it lately.

Does she get that payout? Or is it just a fine to somewhere else.

I’d love her to get a decent payout

GCAcademic · 28/03/2025 12:52

EasternStandard · 28/03/2025 12:50

I’m just hearing about this on Times radio. I haven’t really followed it lately.

Does she get that payout? Or is it just a fine to somewhere else.

I’d love her to get a decent payout

No, it's a fine, payable to the OfS. It's not a payout to Kathleen.

Kucinghitam · 28/03/2025 13:28

Hermyknee · 28/03/2025 12:19

Universities are a business. I am not sure this is the best business model to pursue - it seems very personal from the VC. The damage to the university and the impact on whether children and their parents chose Sussex as the place to spend their money is at stake. I would want to draw a line under it. People like to stick their own money into places of stability, longevity and into one that benefits them (one that makes their children employable afterwards). You google Sussex Uni and this is the first thing that comes up. It’s going to keep on coming up as the VC pursues it. What does the endpoint look like?
In the meantime what type of atmosphere and what type of student will their future cohorts be?

Maybe it's a last-ditch kitchen sink desperate action. I mean, Sussex will now have in from all sides.

  • TRSOH will be "literally" genocided because of the publicity and that there is no longer a guaranteed sacred caste magic words status at Sussex and must flee to more protective institutions.
  • TWSOH were revolted by the bullying of Kathleen Stock in the first place and are now goggle-eyed at the VC's belligerent and mendacious reaction.
  • Lots of normal people who might not have noticed the previous ructions are now learning that a university already in financial trouble has got a massive fine (which was already reduced from what it could have been) is planning to dig a deeper hole spend an unknown amount of their fee income on a contest of uncertain outcome but certain vast expense.

My DC are almost at university age. We have already begun by discounting any universities that are in financial trouble. As university academics ourselves, we already know that even in less dire institutions, the fees in fact do not cover the cost of delivering many of the courses, leading to all manner of desperate money-saving measures on staff and background services. We will 100% be avoiding any university that looks like spending DC's fees on this sort of performative virtue-signalling legal posturing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 13:33

Arran2024 · 28/03/2025 12:48

Last year there was a big controversy at UCL, which had set engineering students a task to design something for the LGBT+ It caused huge upset as so many of the students were from conservative overseas countries, and many of the students didn't want or feel able to take part. Embassies were consulted, UCL had to offer an alternative, LGBT+ campaigners were furious.....Looks like UCL need the overseas students so they listened.

roarnews.co.uk/2024/lgbtq-project-controversy-engineering-students-complain-to-department/

That’s fascinating.

NecessaryScene · 28/03/2025 13:43

Okay, I'm totally stumped.

"It requires students to research and identify challenges facing the LGBTQ+ community, then design, prototype and test an electromechanical product that can survive “extreme conditions” to address these challenges."

I can't think of anything that wouldn't be facetious, or at the very least not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

lcakethereforeIam · 28/03/2025 13:59

Anything they want then paint it pink?

A humanoid robot with a head tilt?

NecessaryScene · 28/03/2025 14:04

Problem is that a lot of the things I can think of have already been invented.

For example, a device that could get the creases out of a "progress" pride flag.

Maybe it would need to be some sort of multifunction gizmo.

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2025 14:10

NecessaryScene · 28/03/2025 13:43

Okay, I'm totally stumped.

"It requires students to research and identify challenges facing the LGBTQ+ community, then design, prototype and test an electromechanical product that can survive “extreme conditions” to address these challenges."

I can't think of anything that wouldn't be facetious, or at the very least not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

A device to search, locate and remove the T from LGBT wherever it appearsGrin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 28/03/2025 14:20

NecessaryScene · 28/03/2025 14:04

Problem is that a lot of the things I can think of have already been invented.

For example, a device that could get the creases out of a "progress" pride flag.

Maybe it would need to be some sort of multifunction gizmo.

PMSL Grin

FlowchartRequired · 28/03/2025 14:25

lcakethereforeIam · 28/03/2025 13:59

Anything they want then paint it pink?

A humanoid robot with a head tilt?

Yes, I was wondering about something that could help with post-operative care or to help someone who is disabled and then paint it in the trans colours.

An auto-dilator might be going a bit far!

DuesToTheDirt · 28/03/2025 14:36

Arran2024 · 28/03/2025 12:48

Last year there was a big controversy at UCL, which had set engineering students a task to design something for the LGBT+ It caused huge upset as so many of the students were from conservative overseas countries, and many of the students didn't want or feel able to take part. Embassies were consulted, UCL had to offer an alternative, LGBT+ campaigners were furious.....Looks like UCL need the overseas students so they listened.

roarnews.co.uk/2024/lgbtq-project-controversy-engineering-students-complain-to-department/

Such a weird project! "Others commented that they had no issue with the LGBTQ+ focus but felt that “the issues facing the LGBTQ+ community” are “not exactly something that can be solved with electromechanical design”.

Quite. What issues are there? I guess prejudice and lack of understanding, perhaps aggression, discrimination in jobs or housing. What on earth can the engineering students come up with for those?

GCAcademic · 28/03/2025 14:40

NecessaryScene · 28/03/2025 13:43

Okay, I'm totally stumped.

"It requires students to research and identify challenges facing the LGBTQ+ community, then design, prototype and test an electromechanical product that can survive “extreme conditions” to address these challenges."

I can't think of anything that wouldn't be facetious, or at the very least not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

A device to see into people's souls? Oh, wait, Layla Moran already has one.

EasternStandard · 28/03/2025 14:52

GCAcademic · 28/03/2025 12:52

No, it's a fine, payable to the OfS. It's not a payout to Kathleen.

That’s a shame. I’d like her to be compensated.

Would she have a case against them I wonder

GCAcademic · 28/03/2025 15:01

EasternStandard · 28/03/2025 14:52

That’s a shame. I’d like her to be compensated.

Would she have a case against them I wonder

I'm sure she would. But I imagine that accepting a settlement was the option more conducive to recovering from her ordeal.

Nameychangington · 28/03/2025 15:08

I think they should take a stance and refuse to submit the coursework, and lose the marks. Signing that petition is a cowardly way to have their cake and eat it too.

Yes students who could be in actual danger (not the 'literal' kind which isn't literal ) in their home countries if they are associated with the project are just cowards who should definitely have to lose marks. TRAs are like caricatures of themselves at this point.

SidewaysOtter · 28/03/2025 15:09

NecessaryScene · 28/03/2025 13:43

Okay, I'm totally stumped.

"It requires students to research and identify challenges facing the LGBTQ+ community, then design, prototype and test an electromechanical product that can survive “extreme conditions” to address these challenges."

I can't think of anything that wouldn't be facetious, or at the very least not in the spirit of Mumsnet.

Maybe a klaxon that goes off with a big flashing light that says “TERF ALERT! TERF ALERT!” if someone has Incorrect Thoughts in the vicinity. It could also dispense snacks, blankets and support animals to anyone affected by such terrible crimes.

SinnerBoy · 28/03/2025 15:09

Fenlandia · Today 12:34

The Green party are a massive disappointment, episode 43,296:

The ratio is currently 137,000 views, 147 like and all the comments I read were highly critical.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 28/03/2025 15:43

Most complaints questioned the project’s relevance to engineering.

Yep, I'm with them on that. What electromechanical device can't be operated by someone of the 'wrong' sexually or gender identity? Especially ones for extreme conditions.

I can think of loads for other protected characteristics such as sex, age or disability. Space suits and equipment for women, for example, are way behind those for men (vacuum loos that don't fit female anatomy etc). But T? ['Not in the spirit' suggestions redacted.]

Largofesse · 28/03/2025 17:04

It does feel very personal from the VC. I agree with @Hermyknee. I think she thought the alterations made under her watch were the dog’s bollocks and not only is she insulted the OfS haven’t agreed or mentioned her in glowing terms she desperately does not want an historical fine to go down on her watch. I bet she’ll get the judicial
review underway which will take years before it comes to the panel and she’ll take a post elsewhere and she’ll then declare it the JR happened years after she left so nothing to do with her. We can all see the narcissism of her replies.

CriticalCondition · 28/03/2025 17:55

Arran2024 · 28/03/2025 12:48

Last year there was a big controversy at UCL, which had set engineering students a task to design something for the LGBT+ It caused huge upset as so many of the students were from conservative overseas countries, and many of the students didn't want or feel able to take part. Embassies were consulted, UCL had to offer an alternative, LGBT+ campaigners were furious.....Looks like UCL need the overseas students so they listened.

roarnews.co.uk/2024/lgbtq-project-controversy-engineering-students-complain-to-department/

Fascinating piece.

But it was KCL, not UCL. Very important difference!

IwantToRetire · 28/03/2025 18:33

This is interesting. And surprisingly published by they "i"

... All good teaching should be about defining our terms. What do the terms sex and gender mean? Is it DNA? Having a penis? Or how you feel? Discuss. What is the difference between anxiety and worry; between depression and sadness. Discuss. What is the difference between ADHD and struggling to focus. Discuss.

It is also about thinking critically and building an argument. Is female genital mutilation wrong? What about male circumcision? What about ear piercing in babies? What about straightening Black women’s hair? What about make-up? Discuss.

And it is about listening to the views of others and being prepared to change and learn. Get into groups and discuss “to what extent is obesity the responsibility of the person or society”.
Debates like this are now dangerous territory that we step into at our peril.

... I am still learning but have been accused of obesity stigma for presenting research that obesity causes cancer and is linked to overeating. My lecture on “women’s health” (abortion, miscarriage and childbirth) was described as not inclusive. My lecture called “eating behaviour” was reported as triggering and in need of a trigger warning as it was about eating behaviour. Our study exploring the role of psychology in long Covid was withdrawn by the university following an outcry that we were saying long Covid was not real.

When I argued that universities may be doing harm by bubble-wrapping their students, my own student union responded that this was “gross”. I’ve heard of colleagues whose students won’t discuss many of these issues for fear of being cancelled by other students. And I know clinical academics who have received death threats for publishing research their patients did not like.

... A comment in a lecture, recorded, taken out of context and sent to a vice-chancellor can have massive ramifications.

For universities there is the added fear of going broke. Students bring in money. If debates upset students, who is going to pay for our salaries? ...

Just a few paragraphs from a much longer article so please dont assume anything about the article as a whole or the author from the extract I have chosen!

Full article https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/lecturer-used-love-student-debates-now-called-triggering-3607549

Can also be read in full at https://archive.is/CTSMg

This aspect, that the students are now the paymaster, means that the admin / finance side of universities prioritise what they want and say. And this means that those who are coming to learn are actually given more power than those who are teaching them.

And that the students bring with them their view of the world formed by other teenagers and social media. And dont want lecturers to challenge this! Sad

I'm a lecturer - I used to love student debates, now I'm called 'triggering'

As Sussex University has been fined a record £585,000 for 'failing to uphold freedom of speech' - one lecturer fears debate and discussion has become dangerous territory

https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/lecturer-used-love-student-debates-now-called-triggering-3607549

RedToothBrush · 29/03/2025 07:04

And in another potential point of tension, from 1 August a new regulation comes into force requiring universities in England to go further in showing how they will promote and uphold free speech on campus.

The OfS says this shouldn't include the content of courses or discussions in the lecture hall. All higher education institutions have to meet conditions to register with the OfS in order to charge tuition fees.

But they will also have to show how they are acting to prevent the harassment of students - and universities are required to try to increase applications from underrepresented groups, through initiatives to make them feel more included.

Lawyer Smita Jamdar, who advises universities in England on how to comply with regulations, says that to reduce harassment, universities need to be "really clear about the behaviour you will and will not tolerate" and that action will be taken when students "transgress those boundaries".

While that has to be balanced against freedom of speech, Ms Jamdar said most people would expect "the line to be drawn somewhere other than name calling and derogatory jokes".

When the BBC looked at similar trans equality policies at a number of universities it wasn't entirely clear whether they would be considered a challenge to free speech.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn52527gk69o

I really don't think this as difficult as students are making out.

You do not have a right to only hear what you want to hear. Sex exists. Trans people have a sex. Sex is not gender and conflating the two is harmful to everyone including trans people. Pronouns are not politically neutral and can do harms. There is no right for males to use female facilities - there's an exception clause in the equality act. We have a legal right to believe in sex as this WORIADS.

Targeted campaigns against individuals including death threats aren't that difficult to distinguish as harassment.

The problem with trans policies full stop is they are built on the concept of others being forced to comply with almost religious doctrine. And it's built on the believe in someone else's head. It's not tangible and it's fictitious.

The further this goes along, the more I think it has to be treated as a religious belief with separate facilities provided by institutions of a big enough size where appropriate - like prayer rooms are. However others can not be forced to go along with it. You can state you don't believe and I would go as far as saying that pronouns are going to have to be let go. The issue is whether you are harassed and abused for your beliefs and aren't employed. Harassed would be a targeted campaign of deliberately going out of your way to do something that isn't in the course of normal every day life. So anything that involves a journey that you would otherwise not make, springs to mind as a good and easy way to start. Along with certain spaces having different levels of protection. (This is also why the L will need a divorce from the T - they are incompatible if you want a protective bubble for either or both. Universities would be wise to oversee it or they put themselves at risk.) Unequal levels of unfair criticism is another, where you can demonstrate that another student is being treated more favourably.

But as part of this students are going to have to start to accept that they aren't the centre of the known universe like toddlers think. They may have no said to them because of various concerns or issues - including for their own wellbeing which they may not recognise. Demanding is going to have to stop. It's not something they will be able to do after university so it's not in their long term interests for it to be normalised by cowardly universities.

It's interesting that there is more to come in terms of harassment. The harassment elements of this and the inability of universities to grasp what harassment is, is going to produce some interesting results.

A group of six students walk up a set of stairs in a university building

Students call for clarity over university free speech rules

Clearer advice is needed on how to make campuses inclusive without falling foul of free speech regulations, the National Union of students has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn52527gk69o

CarefulN0w · 29/03/2025 08:22

Nice diary comment on the Times today from the sadly departing Patrick Kidd.

After Sussex University was fined £585,000 this week for breaking free speech rules, its vice-chancellor informed all staff in an email that their right to say what they like was a “foundational commitment”. Well, up to a point. A few lines later, Sasha Roseneil told academics that if any journalists asked them for comment they should keep schtum and direct them to the press office.

thenoisiesttermagant · 29/03/2025 08:24

IwantToRetire · 28/03/2025 18:33

This is interesting. And surprisingly published by they "i"

... All good teaching should be about defining our terms. What do the terms sex and gender mean? Is it DNA? Having a penis? Or how you feel? Discuss. What is the difference between anxiety and worry; between depression and sadness. Discuss. What is the difference between ADHD and struggling to focus. Discuss.

It is also about thinking critically and building an argument. Is female genital mutilation wrong? What about male circumcision? What about ear piercing in babies? What about straightening Black women’s hair? What about make-up? Discuss.

And it is about listening to the views of others and being prepared to change and learn. Get into groups and discuss “to what extent is obesity the responsibility of the person or society”.
Debates like this are now dangerous territory that we step into at our peril.

... I am still learning but have been accused of obesity stigma for presenting research that obesity causes cancer and is linked to overeating. My lecture on “women’s health” (abortion, miscarriage and childbirth) was described as not inclusive. My lecture called “eating behaviour” was reported as triggering and in need of a trigger warning as it was about eating behaviour. Our study exploring the role of psychology in long Covid was withdrawn by the university following an outcry that we were saying long Covid was not real.

When I argued that universities may be doing harm by bubble-wrapping their students, my own student union responded that this was “gross”. I’ve heard of colleagues whose students won’t discuss many of these issues for fear of being cancelled by other students. And I know clinical academics who have received death threats for publishing research their patients did not like.

... A comment in a lecture, recorded, taken out of context and sent to a vice-chancellor can have massive ramifications.

For universities there is the added fear of going broke. Students bring in money. If debates upset students, who is going to pay for our salaries? ...

Just a few paragraphs from a much longer article so please dont assume anything about the article as a whole or the author from the extract I have chosen!

Full article https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/lecturer-used-love-student-debates-now-called-triggering-3607549

Can also be read in full at https://archive.is/CTSMg

This aspect, that the students are now the paymaster, means that the admin / finance side of universities prioritise what they want and say. And this means that those who are coming to learn are actually given more power than those who are teaching them.

And that the students bring with them their view of the world formed by other teenagers and social media. And dont want lecturers to challenge this! Sad

The problem with the idea that students are paying customers here is that Universities are just capitulating to those who shout loudest, not what their customers want. They've tried to make themselves like businesses but it's my observation they're rubbish at market research. Most international students do not believe TWAW in my experience, far from it, and they need this money. I bet most home students don't believe it either, they're just scared to say so.

Partly this is because the Union and activist lecturers have not been held to normal professional terms of conduct in the workplace. Universities seem to these days be a terrible preparation for the world of work.

The situation with the Engineering students at KCL - there were a tiny number of lecturers with the power to impose this and a few very vocal students. Then there were the majority who didn't want the bizarre LGBT+ focused engineering project. Their communication was reasonable and fairly pointed out focusing on only one minority group could be seen as excluding the others. And yet they were cast as bigots. A good example of where one PC is raised above all others, to the particular detriment of international students.