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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rape culture starts in primary school

63 replies

WarriorN · 22/03/2025 18:37

This is the Everyone’s Invited primary school list 2025. It contains 1664 schools that have been submitted anonymously onto our website by survivors of sexual abuse during
their time at primary school

https://www.everyonesinvited.uk/PrimarySchoolsList2025.pdf

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WarriorN · 22/03/2025 18:38

Times article <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.is/2025.03.21-194626/www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/everyone-invited-soma-sara-rape-schools-7tzdnl7zm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.is/2025.03.21-194626/www.thetimes.com/uk/education/article/everyone-invited-soma-sara-rape-schools-7tzdnl7zm

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Redshoeblueshoe · 22/03/2025 21:14

There is another thread about this on here, and I can't find it. Several mums telling horrific tales of what has happened in their DC's primary schools. It was awful.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 22/03/2025 21:43

And mine's not on there because I didn't know that this survey was happening.

It's a huge list.

Myalternate · 22/03/2025 21:58

Can’t read the Times article, says page not found.
I’m so thankful the school my little ones attend, isn’t on that list.

Thelnebriati · 22/03/2025 23:44

Here's an archive of the Times article; https://archive.fo/iWaZP

WarriorN · 23/03/2025 05:31

Redshoeblueshoe · 22/03/2025 21:14

There is another thread about this on here, and I can't find it. Several mums telling horrific tales of what has happened in their DC's primary schools. It was awful.

that's awful - I hadn’t seen another one, sorry. Will keep an eye out

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WarriorN · 23/03/2025 05:33

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 22/03/2025 21:43

And mine's not on there because I didn't know that this survey was happening.

It's a huge list.

good point. This is a site for self reporting I believe

a couple of years ago the site was named in kcsie and my school’s safeguarding training did emphasise that primary schools were included. I’m not sure it’s outright named now.

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Flowersinthehood · 23/03/2025 06:18

I think if we’re going to start talking about this, we need to be honest about our own sons.
My son is a nice lad, he’s 8. He can tell me absolutely nothing about the girls in his class. He doesn’t play with them. They don’t come over to ours. If I say ‘hey is that Lilly over there?’ in a shop he will barely say hello.
He is growing up with positive male role models although I’m a single parent.
If men/ boys feel nothing but ambivalence towards women and girls, and feel we have nothing to bring to the table in terms of friendship, things in common, skills, like my son seems to, then we are in trouble. If boys feel mild ambivalence and irritation about girls until or if they start feeling sexually attracted to them, then we’re screwed.
I wonder if men in general feel little empathy for women. I’ve certainly had that feeling many times, that they fundamentally cannot put themselves in our shoes.
This leads not only to misogyny and feeling of being ‘owed’ a certain use of our bodies, but a lifelong distrust/ bordering on dislike of women in general. I think it all comes from motherhood, but then I am an amateur psychoanalyst!

CurlewKate · 23/03/2025 06:56

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CurlewKate · 23/03/2025 06:56

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CurlewKate · 23/03/2025 06:56

@FlowersinthehoodI absolutely agree. And men need to step up and take ownership of this issue too. Whenever I read a thread on here about the way men often behave in relationships-not the huge things like violence and abuse, but the indifference and dismissal and unkindness-I always think about the children who are learning about relationships from these men.

RedToothBrush · 23/03/2025 08:26

Flowersinthehood · 23/03/2025 06:18

I think if we’re going to start talking about this, we need to be honest about our own sons.
My son is a nice lad, he’s 8. He can tell me absolutely nothing about the girls in his class. He doesn’t play with them. They don’t come over to ours. If I say ‘hey is that Lilly over there?’ in a shop he will barely say hello.
He is growing up with positive male role models although I’m a single parent.
If men/ boys feel nothing but ambivalence towards women and girls, and feel we have nothing to bring to the table in terms of friendship, things in common, skills, like my son seems to, then we are in trouble. If boys feel mild ambivalence and irritation about girls until or if they start feeling sexually attracted to them, then we’re screwed.
I wonder if men in general feel little empathy for women. I’ve certainly had that feeling many times, that they fundamentally cannot put themselves in our shoes.
This leads not only to misogyny and feeling of being ‘owed’ a certain use of our bodies, but a lifelong distrust/ bordering on dislike of women in general. I think it all comes from motherhood, but then I am an amateur psychoanalyst!

The trouble with this is you are missing a huge point here.

DS is ten. He has no interest whatsoever in girls. But then he has no interest whatsoever in boys who play football either.

We had a conversation with him about this not long ago. There is a girl he does talk to and seems to get along with at an out of school activity he does. His comment was that he didn't have anything in common with the girls in his class. He regards them as somewhat vacuous and only into beauty stuff and Taylor Swift. But that's not a lot different to the boys who are into football. He said this girl at this activity was "the only girl who he has something in common with". He doesn't have a lot of time for the boys who actively look down on him because he doesn't conform and fit into their gang. He took exception to a teacher describing his classmates as his friends. He commented "just because they are in my class, doesn't mean I'm friends with them. I just have to get on with them but that doesn't make us friends".

And actually that's a fairly mature understanding of the difference between acquaintances and colleagues and actual friends you seek out, want to spend quality time with and trust.

And the problem lies with the 'enforcement' and the bullying that comes with non conformity. The 'in boys' other the children who aren't in their gang and are part of their collective identity. This is where gender stereotypes and obligations to follow them matter and are problematic. Not a disinterest in another child in the class. It's about forced interests and the closing off exploration of interests because they are 'girls/boys' interests.

It's about the formation of hierarchies within society at an early age. And how they are propped up and enabled by adults. It's tribalism that's ultimately the problem here. Boys who like Taylor Swift are quickly made to be embarrassed and told they are effeminate. Likewise girls who like football are quickly told they aren't good enough, even if they are more skilled.

Disinterest, in its self isn't a problem. As adults we all have people who you really don't particularly want to engage with and pretend to be best buds with. And that's ok.

Your argument here neglects the point that girls do the same thing in terms of general disinterest. They don't want to engage with the boys for similar reasons.

There's one boy in my son's class who has been somewhat rejected by the other boys (he gets on with my son well but he doesn't fit in with the rest of the group). He's one of the most immature, smallest and struggles with gaming because of motor skills issues so doesn't have that in common. The result is he's ended up playing with the girls who he does get on with, but he still wants to play with the boys. Put him in a different environment with some of the same boys (including DS) and they get on amazingly well. The issue is the social space and hierarchies which don't allow you to get to know peers in different ways and to find common ground in different ways.

The issue here is these same social hierarchies exists across the world - they've studied it in numerous different cultures - and there's these same patterns of the sporty ones and the cool ones having higher society status than the outsiders and nerds.

This is where how you teach tolerance or authoritarian ideas matters. If you have a society that places higher value on enforcement of conformity. This is where sexism starts to fit in. It's about conformity and non conformity.

Perversely if you go too full on with enforcement of 'inclusion' you stray into the realms of authoritarianism of forcing kids who don't things in common and genuinely don't get on, see how quickly they kick back and complain because they want to play with their mates. You can't force the issue. You can only gently put kids into different scenarios with new experiences away from the set social bonds and change attitudes.

So putting the all football kids with the girls who like Taylor Swift and asking them to get on won't work. Put one with another and a whole group of different kids doing a climbing activity they've never done before and you might get a totally different response. Because you have a reset and are on neutral ground.

The kids start to mix when they are older because they suddenly have something in common - hormones! And that's a natural reset point.

You can make that work if you then have healthy peers and influences about how you treat the other. That's doomed from the off if your only reference points are unhealthy online echo chambers and porn. That's why the whole role model thing is relevant.

But equally the macho attitudes of parents does impact here. Football and a somewhat toxic masculinity go hand in hand in a way that's different to other sports (each sport has its own culture surrounding it). Why does football have hooliganism when other very masculine sports don't? That's the type of question you should ask...

...the answer comes back to tribalism and power every single time.

CurlewKate · 23/03/2025 08:26

I do find it depressing that threads on subjects like this get so little engagement. I’ve tried starting something similar in Chat (there’s one there at the moment) and not much more response there. Are people
overwhelmed, which is understandable? Or do they genuinely not see a problem….

BiscuitsAndButtons · 23/03/2025 08:39

I teach in a primary and honestly don't recognise any of the above about boys' and girls' relationships. The girls and boys all socialise and are often very good friends. Girls make up about a third of the children who play football at break and aren't treated differently. There isn't some big divide between them. It's the same at my child's primary. I'm not doubting there are schools like that but it isn't universal.

Flowersinthehood · 23/03/2025 08:45

@RedToothBrushbut my daughter is completely different (I know this is a very small sample size). She is 9 and knows what every boy in her class is into, even if it isn’t things she is herself interested in. She said ‘so and so was upset today’ and ‘so and so wore this into school as it was certain religious holiday today’. She knows the boys and talks to them, she takes time to find out what they are interested in and adapts her tone/ energy accordingly. She is good listener; and I think that is almost a universal female trait. I think women are better as listening, it’s not biological, we teach ourselves to do it to get our needs met as we have no power!

Beamur · 23/03/2025 08:45

I think that tribalism and social power is key - and in primary school years our kids start to learn where their interests lie and start to feel the effects of not fitting in.
By high school these divisions are very stark, although in my limited experience as a parent it seems to shift again at 6th form/college - where tribalism is rife, but judgement reduces.
How we parent our kids and what happens in school can shape better outcomes I think - but online resources and networks have a huge influence.
Fwiw, I think uniform rules, playground space and allocation and unconscious bias continue to shape gender stereotypes.
Attitudes towards male/female identity seems to be in a very unhealthy place right now and I don't think it's good for boys or girls.
My DD had a rough time at high school as a non conformity girl. The prevailing attitude of teenage boys was pretty horrible. Even kinder more empathetic boys hid it from their peers. The culture was very blokey, bit rapey, and unkind. Ironically some of these lads are now keen to get a girlfriend and unsurprisingly are finding it hard as the network of girls they know, know what they're like! This in turn is the kind of dynamic that ends up with men hating women for not giving them what they want.
But I do think this is something that men as a collective have to want to address. Until they do, nothing much will change.

ViciousCurrentBun · 23/03/2025 09:10

My lad was really in to football but he had a lot of friends that were girls at school and still has women friends as does DH. He hung out with two girls a lot who would be classed as tomboys, played football a lot with one. I was a tomboy and it’s translated to being the same as an adult. At a summer BBQ once the person I had the most in common with was a young girl of about 13 who was in to gaming like myself. The 8 women who were mainly middle aged like me were talking in depth about baking. I had nothing to add at all. Tribalism does exist and there are most definitely interests that are dominated by men or women. If you step in to an arena dominated by men or women as the other side it’s quite challenging on occasion.

WarriorN · 23/03/2025 18:49

just seen this on my fb feed

Rape culture starts in primary school
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Itwasacceptableinthe80zz · 23/03/2025 21:29

@RedToothBrush I agree with you on the social hierarchy’s. I do think a schools ethos and values really matters in these things and our current school is good at valuing everyone so they do all feel like friends even if there are looser or tighter friendship groups.

The dividing line at the primary school we left was between those exposed to inappropriate content and brought that into school and those who weren’t and/or didn’t like it. The ethos of the school was far too tolerant for want of stigmatising kids who for example
aged 8 year were talking about killing prostitutes in grand theft auto, swearing at teachers (“you old bitch”) or making sexualised comments to other girls AND boys. It wasn’t tackled even where it was to the detriment of other children and fed into more bad behaviour and bullying. That’s why I think its important to be clear on values and pragmatic about how they are reinforced.

Compared to what you describe football was actually the great leveller at that school. All the boys and half the girls played football played - I don’t know whether it was encouraged by accident or design. If design I suspect there was a big element around trying to bolster the self esteem of some of the worst behaved children (girls as well as boys). The “lower status” children were welcomed in as on the pitch they were part of the team and kids who were more rough around the edges were increasingly drawn into different styles of play eg make believe, playing with equipment. I think this helped a bit until they decided to split girls and boys to use the playground on alternate days. It rather interrupted the mixed friendship groups, or isolated boys who fancied doing something else and now had no-one else to play with. My friends son is one such child and gets called “gay” and “autistic” most days.

TeiTetua · 23/03/2025 22:31

One hates to think this, but--when was this ever not true? We'd like to believe that a child is a blank slate, capable of learning to behave as we'd like, if we just led her or him that way. But I think there's only so much you can do. "Don't be a liar, a thief or a bully" might get through to some of them, others not even that.

MarieDeGournay · 25/03/2025 18:34

Both the BBC and Sky news have been covering this subject
Sadism, sexual abuse and self-harm: Inside the online gangs where boys compete to be cruel | UK News | Sky News

'Sadistic' online gangs of teen boys targeting children, says crime agency'
'Sadistic' online gangs of teenage boys targeting children - NCA

The elephant in the room in these reports, and in the 'rape culture in primary school' story, is children using smartphones.

Despite all the warnings that smartphones are not suitable for children - warnings which have been made since the smartphone was invented, there's nothing new about it - in the UK a quarter of 5-7 year olds have their own smartphone, and over half of children under 13 use social media [Ofcom figures].

This is the principle means by which the grooming, harassment and online abuse of children is taking place. That's all technically possible without a smartphone, but 24/7 access to a smartphone, which is, don't forget, also a camera, is the perfect weapon.

Once of the cases quoted by Sky is a 12-year-old girl who was groomed into sending pictures of self-harm, and then nude photos.
Her mother said she was 'shocked' to discover these images on her daughter's phone, and to find out that the grooming had been going on for a year before she found out about it.

What that shocking case boils down to is that an 11-year-old was given a smartphone, and her use of it was not supervised, and the poor child is now "suffering some level of trauma and a lot of shame." from what happened to her.

The founder of Everyone's Invited responds to the obvious suggestion of not giving smartphones to under-16s with
“It’s unrealistic,” she says. “We can try to give them basic phones and block them from adult sites, but that’s not the world we now live in, many will still be able to access stuff.

'that’s not the world we now live in'?.
If 'the world we now live in' is one where an 11-year-old girl is handed the means by which she is going to be groomed and harmed for a full year before her parents even notice, a shoulder-shrug is not the answer - making changes to 'the world we now live in' that make it safer for children is the answer.

Sure, 'many will still be able to access stuff', but many more won't; just because we can't do everything doesn't mean we should give up and do nothing.

Everyone's Invited is doing admirable work, and I'm sorry to go on and on about one point in an excellent article, but at the heart of so many tragic cases is a smartphone in the hands of an under-16-year-old child.

WarriorN · 25/03/2025 18:36

I agree, don’t apologise for nailing it 🎯

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selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/03/2025 01:03

MarieDeGournay · 25/03/2025 18:34

Both the BBC and Sky news have been covering this subject
Sadism, sexual abuse and self-harm: Inside the online gangs where boys compete to be cruel | UK News | Sky News

'Sadistic' online gangs of teen boys targeting children, says crime agency'
'Sadistic' online gangs of teenage boys targeting children - NCA

The elephant in the room in these reports, and in the 'rape culture in primary school' story, is children using smartphones.

Despite all the warnings that smartphones are not suitable for children - warnings which have been made since the smartphone was invented, there's nothing new about it - in the UK a quarter of 5-7 year olds have their own smartphone, and over half of children under 13 use social media [Ofcom figures].

This is the principle means by which the grooming, harassment and online abuse of children is taking place. That's all technically possible without a smartphone, but 24/7 access to a smartphone, which is, don't forget, also a camera, is the perfect weapon.

Once of the cases quoted by Sky is a 12-year-old girl who was groomed into sending pictures of self-harm, and then nude photos.
Her mother said she was 'shocked' to discover these images on her daughter's phone, and to find out that the grooming had been going on for a year before she found out about it.

What that shocking case boils down to is that an 11-year-old was given a smartphone, and her use of it was not supervised, and the poor child is now "suffering some level of trauma and a lot of shame." from what happened to her.

The founder of Everyone's Invited responds to the obvious suggestion of not giving smartphones to under-16s with
“It’s unrealistic,” she says. “We can try to give them basic phones and block them from adult sites, but that’s not the world we now live in, many will still be able to access stuff.

'that’s not the world we now live in'?.
If 'the world we now live in' is one where an 11-year-old girl is handed the means by which she is going to be groomed and harmed for a full year before her parents even notice, a shoulder-shrug is not the answer - making changes to 'the world we now live in' that make it safer for children is the answer.

Sure, 'many will still be able to access stuff', but many more won't; just because we can't do everything doesn't mean we should give up and do nothing.

Everyone's Invited is doing admirable work, and I'm sorry to go on and on about one point in an excellent article, but at the heart of so many tragic cases is a smartphone in the hands of an under-16-year-old child.

Don't apologise for being right.

If your child doesn't have a camera-equipped, Internet-connected phone and is only allowed tablets or laptops in the living room with an adult supervising, your child can't be groomed in her own bedroom.

A "smartphone" is not actually a phone, it is an Internet-connected pocket computer. I think that parents don't realise this. The same parents who recognise the need to PIN lock the "adult" channels on the TV and set up filters on the broadband don't realise that a child can access the dark web and bully or be bullied over Whatsapp/Kik/Signal/IRC/etc using a pocket computer known as "smartphone".

littlebilliie · 26/03/2025 07:33

Myalternate · 22/03/2025 21:58

Can’t read the Times article, says page not found.
I’m so thankful the school my little ones attend, isn’t on that list.

This is not about the school - this is the children. This is the boys. There were two sexual incidents in my DCs school at primary. One boy committed the same act in the same year, he was moved on.

This is 21st century parenting and culture.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/03/2025 10:21

littlebilliie · 26/03/2025 07:33

This is not about the school - this is the children. This is the boys. There were two sexual incidents in my DCs school at primary. One boy committed the same act in the same year, he was moved on.

This is 21st century parenting and culture.

This is 21st century parenting and culture.

Yes and no. Using smartphones pocket computers to make child sexual abuse easier and available in more variants (e.g. solicitation of CSA images, which is what "nudes" are when the subject is a child) is 21st century. Child sexual abuse is every century. I was sexually-assaulted aged eight at school by older boys, and that was last century.