Boyish girls and girlish boys in 20th century children's literature

[SaltPorridge]

George in "The Famous Five", Enid Blyton

Peter in Malcolm Saville's books set in Shropshire

Nancy and Peggy in Swallows and Amazons, Arthur Ransome

Petrova in "Ballet Shoes", Noel Streatfield

Please add more/ discuss/ disagree etc.

I thought Una (?) Meredith was into him and he knew it, but it wasn’t reciprocated? And the letter was a last kindness?

It’s years since I read it though, and I never read carefully!

Not in the books, though Frodo is (very reasonably) reluctant to take on the role he is destined for, and he avoids violence. He's an interesting character who shows great mental strength up against forces too powerful for him, and ends up damaged and little appreciated for his heroics, perhaps because his heroism is very unassuming.

Eustace changes from the mean bully his upbringing has encouraged and becomes a reformed character following his self-inflicted dragon episode. Edmund is in some ways similar, with his change from jealous, weak and guilty traitor to become reliable and sympathetic. In the same stories, CS Lewis displays a dislike of "femininity" in Susan's fate (spoilt by a visit to sophisticated America) and admiration for adventurous girls (Lucy, and to some extent Jill).

That's not mentioned in any of the books, though Ransome may have revealed it elsewhere if you are correct.

Angela Brazil was very keen on music in her school stories (along with most of the other stuff you mention!).

“In the time of swords and periwigs and full-skirted coats with flowered lappets - when gentlemen wore ruffles, and gold-laced waistcoats of paduasoy and taffeta - there lived a tailor in Gloucester.”

― Beatrix Potter, The Tailor of Gloucester

I've just read this and thought straight away of this thread!

It's not so much about defiance of gendered expectations as it is about changes to those expectations across time.

Yes. From a Georgette Heyer set in the mid-18th century:

‘He walked mincingly, for the red heels of his shoes were very high. A long purple cloak, rose-lined, hung from his shoulders and was allowed to fall carelessly back from his dress, revealing a full-skirted coat of purple satin, heavily laced with gold; a waistcoat of flowered silk; faultless small clothes; and a lavish sprinkling of jewels on his cravat and breast. A three-cornered hat, point-edged, was set upon his powdered wig, and in his hand he carried a long beribboned cane.’

And there was no suggestion in the book that there was anything feminine about this bloke.

Lewis’s children are there primarily to serve his narrative rather than being particularly convincing characters. Whereas some of the other authors, the stories are driven by the characters and imagination of the children.

I think there's another aspect to this. Eustace is there as an example of the damage (in Lewis's view) "progressive" values do to children. He learns humility and how to appreciate others. Edmund shows genuine repentance and remorse and gains courage from that. Susan is expunged not because of her "feminine" interest in parties and lipstick directly, but because of the shallowness of her faith and preoccupation with the material world. This is Lewis!

I'm loving this thread, so many great books.
I went to sleep listening to Winter Holiday on Audible, it's been my comfort listen for several years and takes me back to my mum reading it to me. I love the introduction of the Ds.

All 12 books are beautifully written, with very few false notes. Ransome is absolutely brilliant at writing about mundane events, but also ups the tempo convincingly for the more exciting parts. Occasionally social attitudes from between the world wars are glimpsed, such as an innocent use of the N-word by one of the local Norfolk boys in The Big Six.

John's ambition to be worthy of his Naval father is shown very realistically, and his feelings when he makes mistakes (sinking the Swallow in Swallowdale and losing the Goblin's anchor in We Didn't Mean To Go To Sea) and his emotion when his father shows approval is a lovely moment, though I have seen someone scoff at it. All the main characters, including adults, are rounded and well observed.

Yes, the books suffer from being written too quickly. Lewis is capable of more acutely observed characters, such as Ransom in Out of the Silent Planet and Perelandra, and the main male character (I forget his name) in That Hideous Strength.

I read somewhere that Lewis' lack of acquaintance with children meant that a lot of his characterisations were based on his reading of E Nesbit. No idea whether that's true, but I found it an interesting suggestion.

The Magician's Nephew has a lot of Nesbitesque stuff.

Lewis and Tolkien were both brought up in unusual religious settings weren't they?

Lewis was brought up in an Ulster Protestant household, lost his faith then later regained it. Tolkien was a lifelong Catholic. Both men lost their mothers at a young age.

How about Pippi Longstocking? Strong enough to carry her horse, adventurous, fearless, never conforming to expectations.

When talking books with a friend who’s also a children’s author, she said publishers are convinced boys will rarely read stories about girls. I said that seemed remarkably blinkered and not my experience of the books our children liked.

DS was about 7 at the time and building Lego in the same room as us. I didn’t realise he was listening until he piped up “But Pippi Longstocking is for everybody!”

I always find it very sad in The Magician’s Nephew when Digory brings back the magic apple from Narnia for his desperately ill mother , who then recovers. It’s so clearly a wish fulfilment narrative. Lewis was 8 when his mother died and the desolation never left him.

I've been rediscovering Rosemary Sutcliffe recently; I'd forgotten how good her stories were, and also how dark and grown-up with the themes of colonialism, tribalism, slavery and loyalty. I was attracted to Sun Horse, Moon Horse in my school library because of the name (must be a pony book!). The hero is a quiet, reserved boy with artistic leanings, but is the son of a chieftain so has to train as a warrior (the tribe is matrilineal interestingly). He finds a different kind of heroism for his tribe in the end though....it is about as far removed from Jackie rescuing a pony and winning rosettes at the gymkhana as it's possible to be.

Will in Susan Cooper's The Dark Is Rising series is also quiet and unassuming.

I agree. I also love Johns respect for Nancy's skill and how he challenges himself to try to gain her respect. I've also found reading as an adult I notice the stories of the adults more - the courtship of Mary and her woodsman must only get a few lines but it feels very real.
I often wonder what becomes of them all in the second world war, Roger will be just 18 by then with the others a little older.

DS really enjoyed Pippi at that age - she is wonderfully silly.

He also really loved Heidi - I hadn't read it before and I got annoyed by how perfect and good she was, and I didn't expect it to so heavily lay on the religious and moral instruction! I think what he liked was how nice she was and her idealised life in the mountains.

I think for balance I followed it up with a bout of Asterix, also brilliant, but it is interesting explaining why its funny that the chiefs wife is called Impedimenta! (and drunkenness, orgies etc!)

I've not yet had him decide against a book based on whether its about boys or girls, he seems to care more about whether he likes the characters. It feels like its something that is very easy to influence as an adult when you introduce books though.

Nancy was cut out for the Special Operations Executive.

In real life, Roger did join the RAF, and made it through to qualify as a doctor, and allergy specialist, very involved in the development of the first asthma spin-halers!

https://sophieneville.net/tag/the-children-who-inspired-swallows-and-amazons/

My son also enjoyed Pippi Longstocking. Astrid Lindgren wrote another book with strong female characters - Ronja, the Robber's Daughter.

An interesting substack piece by a[n American] teacher regarding boys reading about girls.

2012 blogpost on the Publisher’s Weekly website on the same topic; & the NYT article mentioned therein.

I’ve heard a huge amount of anecdotal evidence about boys not reading books with female protagonists - or indeed by female authors. (As I’m sure everyone knows, the latter is why JKR is, well, JKR.)

A couple of people have mentioned Jo Bettany & I wanted to add that the early CS books, particularly, include some interesting stuff on differing socio-cultural constructions & understandings of femininity (& indeed childhood).

@TheOtherRavenChiz curses x