Am I GC?

[GCornotGCthatisthequestion]

I have been looking into the trans issue for a few months now, looking at sources from both "sides" to try and understand the issues properly and form a view. I think I have come to a position that would get me called a terf in some spaces but also falls short of the view that most on on this forum hold. I would be interested to hear if you would consider me gender critical.

I don't believe that people can change sex, however, I do think that for some people, taking hormones and having surgery to resemble the opposite sex is the right thing for them.

I don't think that women should be forced to compete against transwomen in sports, particularly when prize money is involved or in sports like boxing where the risk of injury is high. I don't think it is reasonable to expect volunteer-run events like Park Run to be able to police whether or not someone who registers as a woman is a transwomen or not. While I understand the frustrations around women being beaten by transwomen in this race I can't see how they could stop this.

I have a close friend from childhood who identifies as non-binary, takes testosterone and has had their breasts removed. While I don't understand their decision I can see with my own eyes how much happier their life is now and I believe that this was the right decision for them. I care about them deeply and I am happy that they were able to make these changes and live a happier life.

I think children who have distress about their sex should receive exploratory therapy to try and understand what they are feeling and why. I don't think they should be given puberty blockers or any kind of hormone therapy until they are adults. I do, however, think most older teens have the capacity to decide how they dress and what name they want to be referred to as.

I will generally use the pronouns that someone asks me to about them. I don't look down on or sneer at people who add pronouns to email signatures. I don't agree with companies mandating that people have it add them.

I think people should be able to ask for a female doctor for intimate medical care and it mean biologically female rather than a transwoman.

I have felt uncomfortable with some of the content on this forum. The "tranvestigation" threads that seem to target black female athletes because they don't fit European standards of what a woman is meant to be. The overlooking of terrible behaviour from people because "at least they know what a woman is".

Would you say I was GC?

Well I stopped looking when I found one. I do remember other threads spectaculating obn people. It's actually not a very nice experience for me to read threads like that so forgive me for not wanting to spend more time on it.

You seem quite hyperfixated on me expressing discomfort on this when it was a small part of what I posted. Why is that? It wasn't the main point of the post.

I don't doubt that trolls post on here but I think it's a bit disengenuos to dismiss everything that you think reflects badly on this forum as the work of trolls trying to make people who post here look bad.

Hi @GCornotGCthatisthequestion , I just wanted to say welcome, as you are new. I'm also new (been lurking and reading for a couple of years but joined in because of the Sandie Peggie Vs NHS Fife tribunal) but I haven't contributed anything of substance yet. I know the regular posters are much more knowledgeable and able to reason better than me, so I keep on reading.

I do want to make a general point though, that a single thread, if it impacts someone on an emotional or personal level, can grow in the mind, and I wonder if that one thread from a year ago has done that.

I don't know why you think I'm "hyperfixated on [you] expressing discomfort on this". My only comment about your discomfort was to say that I thought you shouldn't ignore your discomfort in response to something you perceive as racism, which was intended to be sympathetic. I'm sorry if you thought I meant something else by this. It wasn't intended.

Almost all the threads I remember which speculated on people's sex were the ones about people like Semenya, Banda and Khelif, who are males with DSDs. The only one I can remember about an actual woman (I didn't see the one you posted at the time) was about a white woman.

I don't know why you think I'm "hyperfixated on [you] expressing discomfort on this".

Because you've quoted that particular part of the op twice. And you are still talking about it.
To be clear I don't think its OK to transvestigate white women either.

I also suspect that many sex-realist transpeople would have preferred a treatment that allowed them to be comfortable in their own body, without the damaging effects of cross-sex hormones and surgery. People like Buck Angel and Marcus on YouTube, fully accept the downsides of a physical transition, but say it was the best/only choice for them. Neither claims to have turned into the opposite sex - merely to have the outwards appearance of such.

Statistically it will not be the best thing for most transpeople (as increasingly evidenced by research) but the modern trans movement has promoted and normalised transition as the only cure for gender dysphoria (to the extent of having exploratory therapy branded conversion therapy).

Statistically it will not be the best thing for most transpeople (as increasingly evidenced by research)

Are you able to point me in the direction of where I can learn more about this research? I'd like to read it.

This research was published last week - https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285316-new-research-depression-and-mh-worse-after-surgical-transition

Thank you

This part?

I have felt uncomfortable with some of the content on this forum. The "tranvestigation" threads that seem to target black female athletes because they don't fit European standards of what a woman is meant to be.

I only quoted the first sentence to put the second in context. I thought just quoting the second sentence without the context of 'the content of this forum' wouldn't make sense. I thought it was clear that my comments were about whether or not this forum was full of 'transvestigation' threads, not about you feeling uncomfortable with them. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I didn't see the thread you posted at the time and I don't remember seeing any other threads about black female athletes not fitting European standards of what a woman is meant to be. I'm not convinced that there have been lots of them here because it's unlikely I failed to see any of them.

When I read things like:

I have a close friend from childhood who identifies as non-binary, takes testosterone and has had their breasts removed. While I don't understand their decision I can see with my own eyes how much happier their life is now and I believe that this was the right decision for them.

I interpret this in the same way as the following types of things, to lesser or greater extent:

The woman who is “so much happier” now she’s had breast implants.

The woman who is “so much happier” now she’s decided to eat what she likes and not worry about her (obese) weight.

The woman who is “so much happier” now she is back with Dave (the knobhead she left)

Maybe these aren’t fair comparisons, but in an ideal world people would not be “happier” for having healthy body parts cut off.

You seem quite hyperfixated on me expressing discomfort on this when it was a small part of what I posted. Why is that? It wasn't the main point of the post

Because it's smearing the board where most of us regularly post, implying that we all do this. That's why women here care. As pp suspected, you made a generalised statement based on what a couple of people said. That's not really very fair or reasonable, is it?

It feels like a familiar tactic to me.

Despite actually agreeing with the principle points made here, the OP feels the need to point to something that makes us the 'baddies', that she can distance herself from to maintain the moral high ground.

It's a way of dealing with the intense cognitive dissonance that people feel as the scales fall from their eyes on this issue. I've seen it played out numerous times (often it's about criticising our tone).

Of course you are GC OP, the vast, vast majority of people are - what you really mean by that is that you respect the importance of sex (over gender) and have basic understanding of its binary and immutable nature.

@TheKeatingFive yep

Is anyone on here able to link that Venn diagram that shows where genderism, gender critical feminism and traditional views overlap and differ? I found that it clarified things for me, and wondered if the OP has ever seen it. It nicely unpicks the tendency to conflate the feminist stance with the religious Right, which some people get confused about and some use as a deliberate smear tactic.

It feels like a familiar tactic to me.
Despite actually agreeing with the principle points made here, the OP feels the need to point to something that makes us the 'baddies', that she can distance herself from to maintain the moral high ground.
It's a way of dealing with the intense cognitive dissonance that people feel as the scales fall from their eyes on this issue. I've seen it played out numerous times (often it's about criticising our tone).

The irony of this is astounding considering you are literally piling on a black women daring to state that she found something around race uncomfortable. This is massive projection on your part. The tactic of making black people the bad guys for naming racism and bringing things like this up is extremely familiar to me. I haven't criticised your tone at all but you are sure as hell criticising mine....

I have not seen this but would be interested to.

We don't live in an ideal world sadly.

Oh! So suddenly a concern for defining women as adult human female (other orders of nouns are available) becomes a racist trope?

I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

There will always be gender dysmorphia, which is a recognised medical issue. For some adults, the only solution to this may be surgery/hormones etc. I do not care what people do with their bodies any more than I care when someone gets a boob job or botox. I think it's very sad you would hate a body part so much and that it distresses you so much you want to remove it, and believe therapy should be offered first, but some people do ultimately seem happier after surgery. I do think if you're a woman considering removing your breasts though you should truly think about why that might be and whether it's based on your experiences under patriarchy.

I just don't believe you can change sex, or that people born male should be able to access spaces for women. I support trans people in the sense people should have the right to present however they like, but I don't support saying you're something you're not.

I also just don't believe you can 'feel like a woman' or 'feel like a man'. You can't possibly feel like a woman if you're not one, any more than I can feel black as a white person. Also, I'm a woman, but I don't feel like one, I just feel like myself. A woman is just what I'm called due to my Biology and the way I've been socialised. The things that make me a woman are things I have experienced due to my sex class. Everything else is gender, which is a social construct.

Clothing, interests etc, do not make a woman or a man. I participate in a lot of hobbies that are dominated by men, but it does not make me man. think part of being gender critical is recognising that being trans actually reinforces a gender binary. I think if we lived in a world where it was acceptable to look, act, and dress however we wanted, there would be far less people identifying as trans.

I'm obviously not pro trans people in women's sport etc, but I do think the scrutiny leaves gender non-comforming women open to questions and humiliation. It's easy to see how a masculine presenting bitch lesbian, for example, might end up having their sex questioned. I do think it will make it hard for genuine natal women who are just very tall, very broad of shoulder, etc. And I agree that this will disproportionately affect black women, who are sometimes perceived as more 'masculine'.

The nasty, self absorbed bullying from women on this thread
OP sounds totally grounded and making valid points.

Fuck knows why anyone would want to identify as a woman reading this

That Venn Diagram...

I hope someone can copy it for you. I've seen it in a thread or two on here but can't remember who posted it.

In case they can't, there are three overlapping circles for the three beliefs/attitudes. The traditional and the feminists share that sex is immutable and it matters in certain situations; the genderists think not.

The traditionals and the genderists both believe in gender ( ie the package of masculine or feminine characteristics and presentation) and think it is a good thing..

But the traditionals think male and masculine belong together and the genderists think they can exist separately. The gender-critical feminists think that as a package, gender has no validity and places social constraints on individual difference, usually to the detriment of women.

Oh dear, I'm not sure I've explained that very well.

A crude illustration:
Traditionals: long hair is feminine and appropriate for women (by sex), not men
Genderists: long hair is feminine and appropriate for people who identify as women, regardless of their sex
Gender critical feminists: long hair is just long hair, anyone should be able to have it without getting labelled.

The nasty, self absorbed bullying from women on this thread
OP sounds totally grounded and making valid points.

Fuck knows why anyone would want to identify as a woman reading this^^

Yes, all women are terrible, so maybe men should find a better identity 🙄

You said earlier that your discomfort was only a small part of what you posted, and criticised me for what you thought was me being 'hyperfixated' on your discomfort (I wasn't). Now you're saying that you being uncomfortable is the main issue.

But the issue of males with DSDs competing in women's sports isn't a race issue. It's true that recently none of the males with DSDs who have been competing as women are white, but this is because they are from poorer countries in Africa or Asia where healthcare is not as good as in Europe or North America, which is why their condition wasn't recognised earlier. It's a poverty issue, not a race issue.

In the past, this also happened in Europe, to white Europeans, as in the case of the Austrian skier Erik Schinegger.

It's OK. Men never identify as terfy witches. They only ever identify as a male fantasy of what a woman should be.