Edinburgh Women's Aid is to use the equality act exceptions

[GargoylesofBeelzebub]

And its services and staff will be female only.

No males with a GRC either.

Will be interesting to see whether this opens the floodgates.

I think it's a risk, but as we all know most trans people don't have GRCs, and actually I don't think that many trans people at all would go through the process of sharing (real or imaginary) sexual trauma in bad faith AND repeating that they were born female when they clearly weren't.

How many men need to intrude into female spaces before you think it matters? Does it matter when one man tells a female nurse he is a woman and complains when she doesn’t undress in front of him? Does it matter when a man states he is a woman, leads a rape crisis centre that denies women single sex spaces and despite having no counselling qualifications takes sessions with raped women where he listens to them recount their trauma? Does it matter when a man tells a young girl he is a woman to persuade her to take a lift and then kidnaps her subject her to horrific sexual assaults? Does it matter when a man tells a college he is a woman and therefore must be allowed to help apply fake tan to a young female classmate?

But would they deny funding on the basis that it doesn’t comply with their requirement to be ‘trans-inclusive’?

The Times article: Edinburgh Women’s Aid has now explicitly stated it will prohibit trans women or males who identify as non-binary from attending its group support services or refuges even if they hold a gender recognition certificate.

Group support services - so presumably they could offer individual counselling to trans people who identify as female?
That’s Being Kind without affecting women in group meetings or refuges, who (very reasonably imho) might be distressed by having men there.

Not quite the same as The Times’ headline and second paragraph One of Scotland’s largest women’s aid charities has said it will not allow trans women to use its services, in opposition to the organisation’s umbrella body.

I wonder what the forthcoming Radio Scotland programme mentioned in the article is? Don't see anything specific on the schedule so might be part of a Sunday morning "moral issues" type programme?

"An internal government communication sent to the Presiding Officer says Edinburgh Women’s Aid had flagged its policy position ahead of taking part in a BBC Radio Scotland programme due to air on March 9."

www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl8d/2025/03/09

https://archive.ph/9aRUo

'A male sexual predator who harboured “hostility towards women” accessed services at a controversial “trans-inclusive” female rape crisis centre, it has emerged.
Cameron Downing, a former SNP equalities officer who was <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/9aRUo/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/16/former-snp-equalities-officer-jailed-sexual-assaults/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this week given a nine-year sentence for a catalogue of attacks, claimed to have received extensive support from Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre (ERCC).
At the time, the centre offered services only for women, but under its inclusion policy also welcomed biological males who said they identified as female or non-binary.
Downing, who identifies as non-binary and was found by a jury to have falsely accused one of his victims of raping him, said in January 2022 that the ERCC was the reason he was “able to keep going” and that he “cannot put into words how much they’ve helped me.”

Just for anyone who thinks that a man identifying as trans to access women's services is unlikely to happen.

'In terms of the risk assessments specific to sexual offending, you scored in areas including hostility towards women, lack of concern for others, sexual preoccupation and deviant sexual preference. You have been assessed as being at a high risk of sexual reoffending. You have relationship deficits, and have been manipulative as well as showing a callous disregard within your friendship groups. Your offences are likely to have caused significant psychological and physical harm to all your victims, and their psychological recovery from your actions could be prolonged.

You present with a high likelihood of causing serious harm, both sexual and violent, as well as controlling behaviour within the context of intimate relationships. The likelihood of reoffending is not exclusive to men you are in an intimate relationship with, but includes adult women known to you. You have the capacity to cause physical and sexual harm as well as emotional and psychological distress. Your risk is not currently manageable in the community. '

https://judiciary.scot/home/sentences-judgments/sentences-and-opinions/2024/07/16/hma-v-cameron-downing

https://news.sky.com/story/ex-snp-equalities-officer-cameron-downing-who-wanted-to-beat-up-terfs-jailed-for-sexual-and-physical-assaults-13178930

'A former SNP equalities officer who once told how he wanted to "beat the f*" out of gender critical feminists has been jailed for a string of sexual and physical assaults.

The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) branded Cameron Downing a "dangerous individual whose predatory and manipulative behaviour has inflicted unimaginable trauma".

The 24-year-old, who is non-binary and uses he/they pronouns, targeted six male and female victims at addresses in the Edinburgh, Glasgow and Falkirk areas between 2016 and 2023.'

So, Cameron Downing:

1. Claimed to be 'non binary' and used that as a reason to access a Rape Crisis centre.
2. Made a false accusation of sexual assault.
3. Was apparently welcomed at ERCC.

That really is appalling.

For those asking if this is new...

Many WA centres in Scotland have tried to the best of their abilities to operate on a single-sex basis. This has been made exceptionally hard because SWA continues to present as the mouthpiece to Government and is very TWAW.

There is also the issue of younger staff - many of whom were very radicalised.

The clear, public statement is a massive breakthrough and represents a great deal of hard work (for years). Most critically, it's fantastic news for the women of Edinburgh.

Yes quite. If they claim discrimination due to sex ( because female) then the refuge can correctly claim that they accept females. There is no discrimination.

If they claim discrimination due to gender identity then they are admitting they are male and the equality act allows for exemptions in the case of GRC.

The only thing they could say is that they were turned around 'for done reason' which isn't really going to hold my water.

What the Peggie Vs Upton case shows however that no one ever needs to admit to having a GRC or not even in bleedin COURT! So what's the actual point if you aren't allowed to ask to see it/if they have one.

Haven't got to the end of this good news thread but...
Even if a male has a GRC, they can be lawfully excluded on the grounds of Sex or GR from women's single sex services and spaces in situations where women's human rights of privacy, dignity and safety are engaged. That is, RCCs, refuges, communal changing rooms and toilets, etc. This will not be affected by an adverse SC ruling. (What that would affect is the right of women to associate in women only groups -this would affect lesbians worst of all.)

IMO insisting that all or most services have to be trans inclusive (including males) would be unlawful discrimination against women as the group which needs these services most and because it is a situation in which our rights to privacy, dignity and safety come into play.

ETA: IANAL

There have been multiple instances of men accessing (and in several cases then causing trouble in) both women's refuges and rape crisis centres. In the UK and other countries.

This is not a never-happens situation.

ETA example specifically of a Women's Aid refuge: www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/politics/sex-offender-stayed-in-leeds-womens-refuge-for-71-days-as-campaigners-protest-leeds-council-over-scandal-3920683

That was the man who claimed to be a woman and attack two girls in a supermarket toilets in Fife. Unsurprisingly the ‘process’ involved didn’t put him off as there is no process just a statement, should he be questioned, that he is a woman.

Thank you appreciate the clarification and I fully agree that it's an important message.

actually I don't think that many trans people at all would go through the process of sharing (real or imaginary) sexual trauma in bad faith AND repeating that they were born female when they clearly weren't.

Upton seemed thrilled to share his ‘trauma’ and repeat he was female in court.

https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1j28w2z/edinburgh_womens_aid_has_introduced_a/

'Edinburgh Women's Aid has released a statement which is tucked away at the bottom of their support services page incorrectly utilising EHRC guidelines to exclude all transgender women and non-binary individuals from their services. ...

Firstly; Exclusion must be assessed individually, not as a blanket policy. A case-by-case approach is required, and outright refusal without individual assessment could be unlawful. The policy states that all transgender women (even with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC)) are excluded from groupwork and shared refuge spaces. However, Section 9 of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 states that a person with a GRC must be treated in law as their acquired gender. This means a trans woman with a GRC should be considered legally female and should not be automatically excluded.

Blanket exclusion may fail the "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" test under the Equality Act 2010. The organisation would need to justify that excluding all trans women, including those with a GRC, is necessary to protect the service users and cannot be achieved in a less discriminatory way.
Indirect discrimination occurs when a policy disproportionately disadvantages a protected group unless it can be objectively justified.

This policy could disproportionately exclude transgender people from essential domestic abuse support, which may be challenged under Section 19 of the Equality Act 2010.

The policy claims to follow Equally Safe, the Scottish Government's Violence Against Women and Girls Strategy. However, Scottish Government guidance supports inclusive services, stating that trans women should generally be accommodated in women’s services unless specific, proportionate reasons apply.

We at tacc.org.uk have sent this on all our social media pages and reached out to Edinburgh Women's Aid, Scottish Women's Aid of which they come under, and The SNP for comment on this breach of legislation. We have also sent them the following guidance document that outlines in a simple format the regulations in relation to single-sex spaces and transgender individuals' rights.'

tacc.org.uk - Trans Advocacy and Complaints Collective.

Classic. Whining is their super power.

Blanket exclusion may fail the "proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim" test under the Equality Act 2010. The organisation would need to justify that excluding all trans women, including those with a GRC, is necessary to protect the service users and cannot be achieved in a less discriminatory way.

It can't be achieved any other way, because all "trans women" are in fact men, and it's perfectly proportionate and a legitimate aim to have a space free of men when women need one.

Sorry meant to quote you @ArabellaScott

EDIT - I was beaten to it , please ignore me :)

Trans Reddit is certain this is illegal… https://www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/1j28w2z/edinburghwomensaidhasintroduceda/

“This is a direct breach of EHRC guidelines and therefore the EqA2010.
The policy relies on Schedule 3, Part 7 of the Equality Act 2010, which allows exclusion from single-sex services when it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.
Firstly; Exclusion must be assessed individually, not as a blanket policy. A case-by-case approach is required, and outright refusal without individual assessment could be unlawful.
”

Trans Reddit are often quite clueless.

Being in breach of EHRC guidelines isn't the same as being in breach of the law, and the guidelines have been rewritten and amended over time.

Note how when it suits them they cite the EHRC as an authority and when it doesn't they ignore it or get angry about it?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/equality/equality-act-2010/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and#gender-reassignment-provisions-in-the-equality-act

'Example: a domestic abuse refuge offers emergency accommodation to female survivors. Feedback from survivors indicates that they would feel uncomfortable sharing accommodation with trans women for reasons of trauma and safety. The provider decides to exclude trans women from the refuge. It compiles a list of alternative sources of support in the local area which can be provided to trans women who approach the centre for help.'

They didn't really need to look very hard to find the EHRC using this example in the guidance. Took me about 30 seconds.

Also:

'It is most likely to be proportionate to exclude, modify or limit trans people’s access where a service provider has limited resources and physical space to alter the way the service is provided or if they are dealing with groups with particular needs; for example, female victims of male sexual assault who may feel unable to participate in the presence of someone they perceive as male.'