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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teacher told not to use gendered language

253 replies

Pregante · 20/02/2025 12:49

In a teaching observation this month my department head noted as a point for improvement that I should try not to use gendered language when addressing the class. I use boys & girls or ladies & gents depending on the age of the students. She advised this was in order not to potentially offend any trans children. She also mentioned this to some of my other colleagues and gave them the same advice.

I care about my students and would never humiliate anyone. Is this just the norm now? What do I use instead?

OP posts:
KilkennyCats · 20/02/2025 15:44

Floofle · 20/02/2025 15:40

I actually do agree on using gender neutral terms if possible. There's actually some research that shows that if you just remind women/girls that they are female before doing a task, they will perform worse!

I teach Uni students, who are a good 80% male, but I tend to start emails with "Hi All..." or "Dear All"

In class I'd say something like "right everybody attention please...." or "OK you lot listen up..."
Or address them by the class name, eg "OK second year Maths, let's get started..."

That research sounds extremely suspect.
Nobody needs to be reminded of their sex, it’s always part of our consciousness.

CurlewKate · 20/02/2025 15:49

It's not so much reminding the girls that they are girls-it's more about reminding the boys that there are girls on the room.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/02/2025 15:58

That research sounds extremely suspect.
Nobody needs to be reminded of their sex, it’s always part of our consciousness.

Of course everyone knows their sex. But it has been shown that in a male dominated environment or 'stereotypically male' subject, differentiating between males and females can be deleterious to the latter. The young woman is in the class as a mathematician not as a 'female mathematician'.
Girls in a girls school otoh don't seem to suffer from being called girls - they are in an environment where they are the 'default sex' not the 'other'.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2025 16:11

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 20/02/2025 15:05

It’s a nice idea to not use ‘gendered language’ but what does it actually mean or achieve in reality? Women and girls are still disadvantaged and discriminated against, we still don’t have real equality in society, 2/3 of us every week are still being murdered by men, but sure, stop using words like girls and women, dehumanise us a bit more, that’ll solve the problems.

Yes. The idea that by avoiding using the words for girls, women, men, boys, we will magically vanish sexism sounds a bit unlikely to me.

saraclara · 20/02/2025 16:14

I was hoping I'd get some 'just role your eyes and nod along' advice. I'll jump through the hoops when being observed but continue as I am otherwise. If I said 'can I have your attention learners/ learning people' no one would turn around.

You're determined to make it sound difficult, aren't you? There's no need to look for awkward alternatives like learning people.
I'm pretty sure that if you say "can I have your attention everyone" that they'd turn around.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2025 16:15

OP, 'smile and nod' would have been my advice.

There are some arguments for avoiding 'gendered' terms, but I also think a hyperfocus on tiny 'micro problems' can actually end up distracting from the larger ones.

Probably more important to relate whole heartedly and sincerely to your pupils than to expend too much mental energy on using the approved terminology at every turn. Language policing is part of the chilling effect that I suggest is corrosive to relationships and society in general.

Ontopofthesunset · 20/02/2025 16:25

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 20/02/2025 16:26

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2025 16:11

Yes. The idea that by avoiding using the words for girls, women, men, boys, we will magically vanish sexism sounds a bit unlikely to me.

I had a conversation with my eldest son about 9 years ago when he was fresh out of university about this, and he started by saying that we should all just be gender neutral, wouldn’t it be much easier if we all behaved like there were no real differences between men and women. I had to point out to him that as one of the most privileged people on the planet, being a straight, white, male, that was easy for him to say, but until he showed me the plan for eradicating violence towards women and girls, we might need to hold off for a bit.

in fairness to him, he’s now highly embarrassed about how naive he was then, as he thinks this whole GI nonsense is an absolute crock.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2025 16:27

There are arguments for trying to force change topdown by the use of language. And I think they're dubious.

Do we want to focus on always being correct and never saying the wrong thing, or do we want to focus on inspiring, intriguing, supporting, provoking, and helping children to learn?

Sanitising and neating and pruning our language and policing each other and telling each other off for 'wrong' words is not about learning, is it, it's about control and coercion.

Ontopofthesunset · 20/02/2025 16:27

Absolutely no idea why my last reply has been hidden. It was completely inoffensive.

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2025 16:28

If you used some keywords - like ones that crop up often in spam messages - or a bitly link etc, that may have autohidden it.

Pregante · 20/02/2025 16:34

saraclara · 20/02/2025 16:14

I was hoping I'd get some 'just role your eyes and nod along' advice. I'll jump through the hoops when being observed but continue as I am otherwise. If I said 'can I have your attention learners/ learning people' no one would turn around.

You're determined to make it sound difficult, aren't you? There's no need to look for awkward alternatives like learning people.
I'm pretty sure that if you say "can I have your attention everyone" that they'd turn around.

I would say management are determined to make things awkward, not me.

OP posts:
ChompandaGrazia · 20/02/2025 16:42

BeaAndBen · 20/02/2025 13:47

“You ‘orrible lot” is probably not an acceptable alternative, but it’s what my favourite teacher called us.

I use exactly that. ‘Right then you ‘orrible lot’. To which they all chorus back that they aren’t horrible and I tell them that I have plenty of evidence to the contrary.

SiobhanSharpe · 20/02/2025 16:45

I can remember my French teacher would greet us all saying 'bonjour, mes enfants' at the start of class, then when we reached sixth form or thereabouts she announced we were no longer children so she would now say "Bonjour, mesdemoiselles." (It was a girls' school.)
I doubt she would entertain anything else, I think the French are sticking pretty much to their very gendered language.

ChateauMargaux · 20/02/2025 16:47

There was a programme on the BBC many years ago, about the difference in behaviours resulting from using sex based terms. There are also observational studies, one that springs to mind is female interviewees, walking down a corridor with pictures of male board members / CEOs on the wall, and how they performed better when there were no pictures.

The trans or non binary reason might well be confronting, but using non gendered terms can improve outcomes for females. Care must be taken, however, not to use default male terms. And of course, data analysis is important, and outcomes need to be assessed by categories that include sex.

Until women across the world, have equal access to money, decision making power and are equally as safe as men, we need to continue to analyse outcomes by sex.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 20/02/2025 16:50

Kittygolightlyy · 20/02/2025 13:07

Children? Ok children. Children let’s start now. Etc

Of course if someone identifies as a cat then that won’t work. They’d be left out. Probably be offended. Might complain.

Children and cat?

Of course that doesn’t work if someone identifies as a rabbit. Children, cat, and rabbit are you ready?

Oh but that doesn’t work if someone identifies as an adult. It’s difficult.

I wonder what the ‘safe schools’ advice is.

There is no way I'd address a bunch of secondary school students as 'children' (even though obviously they are, technically) - it would sound very, very babying and patronising.

I don't address my classes using gendered terms. Not because of gender issues. Just because I've always used other terms 'Right folks/everyone/Year 7/ 7b' etc. I'd be pissd off to be told not to call them 'girls' though. It's a girls' school. It says so in the name of the school, so unless they are going to change the school's name, it would seem pretty hypocritical. Every student in the school is female, regardless of how they 'identify'.

Kittygolightlyy · 20/02/2025 16:50

I work in a male oriented field, at times. In one job we always received group / team emails started with
’Gents’

I wasn’t that fussed at first but after a while I sent a reply back saying we’re not all ‘gents’! They then started emails with ‘Gents and Kitty’ 😂. That just made me laugh as it wasn’t quite what I was getting at, but I left it.. they meant no harm (I was senior to most of them).

My point being in most cases it does no harm, and going on about it constantly only serves to sow division and discontent. A bit like the Critical Race Theory BS in the US.

Obviously where sex matters - toilets, changing rooms, sport, health care, prisons etc - that’s a whole different case.

*Kitty isn’t my name 🙃

converseandjeans · 20/02/2025 17:03

Since lockdown & the increase in trans students I tend to stick with 'Year 8 settle down'.

We seem to have less trans (gender fluid) students in Years 7-9 so I don't know if it’s becoming less common now for students to transition? We do have a lot of EAL/Muslim/Asylum seeker students though & I've never met one who is identifying as anything other than their birth gender.

Parlezz · 20/02/2025 17:10

ChateauMargaux · 20/02/2025 16:47

There was a programme on the BBC many years ago, about the difference in behaviours resulting from using sex based terms. There are also observational studies, one that springs to mind is female interviewees, walking down a corridor with pictures of male board members / CEOs on the wall, and how they performed better when there were no pictures.

The trans or non binary reason might well be confronting, but using non gendered terms can improve outcomes for females. Care must be taken, however, not to use default male terms. And of course, data analysis is important, and outcomes need to be assessed by categories that include sex.

Until women across the world, have equal access to money, decision making power and are equally as safe as men, we need to continue to analyse outcomes by sex.

Overwhelmingly, outcomes for boys in educational attainment are the ones which need looking at. It isn't about giving girls a better chance, but is usually about bringing boys more in line. This means that texts and topics are chosen with them in mind, strategies to suit them are preferred, they get more attention and opportunity to contribute in class and have extra time and effort spent on them!

converseandjeans · 20/02/2025 17:10

@Pregante

For context I'm 10 years in with the top results in the school.

I think they are just looking for something to add to the 'what to do to improve' section tbh.

I agree that it's concerning that we aren't allowed to use girls/boys any longer. I can't recall any trans or non binary students pre-2017. I don't know why it's become more mainstream. I'm sure they existed prior to then but it's not something that was necessarily common knowledge.

Jesusisking23 · 20/02/2025 17:11

You use boys and girls or ladies and gents. If people get offended then they need therapy. You can’t change gender

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 20/02/2025 17:16

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2025 16:27

There are arguments for trying to force change topdown by the use of language. And I think they're dubious.

Do we want to focus on always being correct and never saying the wrong thing, or do we want to focus on inspiring, intriguing, supporting, provoking, and helping children to learn?

Sanitising and neating and pruning our language and policing each other and telling each other off for 'wrong' words is not about learning, is it, it's about control and coercion.

Absolutely this 👏👏

Soontobe60 · 20/02/2025 17:27

DelphiniumBlue · 20/02/2025 13:11

Actually, I think it's been considered good practice not to refer to boys and girls separately unless you absolutely need to for a while now. Why do you need to say "boys and girls" at all ? There are a few occasions when it might be necessary, eg " If you're in the girl's football team come and see me at lunchtime", but otherwise I don't think it's usually necessary to separate them out in speech, especially if you are actually referring to all pupils.

But why? The children I teach are either boys or girls. I use all sorts of words for the class:
children
kids
everyone
boys and girls
blue group
It makes not a jot of difference either positively or negatively.

AlisonDonut · 20/02/2025 17:28

Until the population of your country consists of an official 'third sex', I'd continue to refer to boys and girls as boys and girls. And it isn't 'gendered language' it is 'sex/reality based language'.

Soontobe60 · 20/02/2025 17:28

wherearemypastnames · 20/02/2025 13:15

If you are talking in gendered language you are more likely to be bringing your gender stereotypes into play subconsciously so best avoided. You are making a distinction between the children based in sex when I school that should rarely matter

Bet you say boys and girls more often than girls and boys - and the order will
Depend on the message

"Children or learners or people

The transgender thing is a red herring here

Nonsense!