The Church of England needs our help apparently!

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9e23jlwdko.amp

Fucking hell. Is there anyone we can suggest that will turn around this shitshow of a misogynist institution?

There’s only one possible candidate.

Rowan Atkinson 😆

Could they not just wind themselves up and donate their funds 50:50 to women's aid and children's aid charities, ie the groups to which they have caused untold harm over the centuries.

Do us all a favour.

@ErrolTheDragon , I wasn't trying to make it sound impressive - less than a million people attend a church service on a Sunday, that's distinctly unimpressive! But the numbers aren't declining, they are rising.

I was going to suggest Rev Richard Coles. He could team up with Jimmy Somerville to rebuild the CofE on a foundation of hi-NRG disco.

Do you mean Christians w more liberal views on women priests, lgb people etc are seen as having no interest in Christianity? That seems unfair, tho I see why people in those countries might feel that way.

Otoh, def agree about the corporate management issue & people without real interest being in charge. Welby has been terrible.

I've read about that in the US too. I don't agree w pp that liberal Christianity doesn't appeal, it's much more an issue of v bad outreach imo.

Well, that is easy. Tom Wright or Nicky Gumble

I also don't agree that old-fashioned music has to put Gen Z people off. At my girls' secondary school, some people did complain about hymns in assembly (we weren't really a religious school but as Anglican-founded, we had a priest, optional communion services & the hymns) but most people loved hymns & Xmas carols, even if they were actually Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or atheist. If non-religious & people of different religions can enjoy old-style hymns, why can't Christians? Even atheists who hated singing religious words lovec the tunes, often

I myself hate the US megachurch pop music stuff w a passion, so maybe I'm biased. But lots of young people can learn to enjoy classical music, so why not hymns? 🤷‍♀️

Ooh, they could give the meeting a name as they congregate, confer, commue, commute, no, conference, umm, Conclave?

Then they'd need a new name. Father, padrè, papa...Pope! That's it!

Part of the muddling is due to the original split - a Pope didn't concern himself with the admin and plumbing, there was somebody else for that and Henry VIII didn't want the burden other than when spending the proceeds but wanted to be the one making decisions about who he would legitimise. So the AoC is pretty much the Facilities Manager with a bit of mission creep over the years, really.

To be fair, it would grow with one year of the count being where it wasnt legal to set foot in one.

@AliasGrace47 we’re seeing interest reviving in choral evensong.
It’s tricky.
There’s a real snowball effect. People go where they see people like them. It’s hard to get younger people ‘in’ when your congregation is older.

That said, God sends people where he will. We’re seeing people turn up, not in response to work we’ve done, in response to God, I guess. We just have to offer them something they want more of, and can just about manage a family atmosphere, as in- all ages represented albeit in small numbers.

I’m quite involved in our village CofE church. I think we’ll be dead within 10 years. V v few volunteers under 75 and even less financial supporters.

From what I’ve seen of the CofE’s internal workings it’s a complete middle management minefield where nothing gets done but there are forms and procedures for everything. Fiddling whilst Rome burns comes to mind.

I’m actually quite angry how long it’s taking to replace the Archbishop.

Meanwhile the local evangelical church has picked up the 10 or so families from our mid size village. It’s growing so fast they are having to increase building size every 3 years. They’re getting teenagers walking in off the street looking for something but they don’t know what.

Meanwhile the CofE is consulting.

How has noone referenced the Yes Minister episode.

"He wants to turn the Church of England into a religious movement!"

Good point. I suspect the issue w the churches w traditional music, etc is the older congregation more than anything else.

I 🙏 more people are sent by God to churches like yours, that's great you are doing outreach work. I get worried about people searching for God but then getting into stuff like the orthobros movement (this BBC investigation is interesting on that
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002bsx9&ved=2ahUKEwinwPe4gsWPAxXs_rsIHcrWPOIQFnoECCkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw27VMxhl_ShO82UM_CljoIf)
or US online evangelicalism. Face-to-face worship, socialising & charity work would be so good for Gen Z if increased.

They have a problem. The best candidates for the position of Primate of All England are women but this could split the church because one wing sees female celebrants as pollution upon the church where they minister (God wasn't born of a woman, then?). As a member I abhore this. However, misogyny is not all that there is to the CofE (our national conscience in some ways and part of our constitution as a nation) for there a many women priests, bishops, deacons and other members of ministry teams. But it's a broad church and the Anglo-Catholics have there place as well as the Puritans, and the 'rather high' lot to which I belong but which welcomes women as priests.

In what way and who do you mean? No church performs same-sex marriages but the CofE will give a blessing and welcomes gays and Lesbians as members of the congregation and into the priesthood (also transpeople, which is a different can of worms given the connections this ideology has to fetishism and harm to minors). The CofE supports equality between the sexes and all the protections listed in the EA2010. Abuse of minors and women is not confined to the CofE - and belatedly (like the RC church) they have admitted it and are addressing it (which does not excuse previously ignoring it, of course).

The CofE is embedded in the UK constitution. How will you get it out?

It is even more complicated than that...
the CofE is entwined into the UK legal structure in such a way that it is almost impossible to de-establish the church without wrecking our entire legal structure - so a massive job...

In addition, the CofE has its own legal structure that runs separately and in parallel to standard UK law - this includes its own planning system (e.g. faculties for church work), its own employment law (vicars are not technically employed - they have a unique position), its own laws and courts (e.g. Court of the Arches) etc.

So the CofE only has to be in line with its own laws not the standard UK laws (in some instances - others it has to comply with UK laws) and the marriage laws in the UK have exclusions to let the church write its own approach...

I'm so glad I live in Wales where the Anglican church was successfully disestablished over a century ago. Our previous Archbishop resigned in June and his successor has already been elected by the Electoral College and is about to take up the post. She is the current Bishop of Monmouth, Cherry Vann, a lesbian in a civil partnership and very popular in her diocese.

Otoh, whereas other churches can take their own approach on gay marriage, the CofE was specifically excluded from being able to do so, in what I thought was a rather brilliant slicing of the Gordian knot to prevent the interminable deliberations of the CofE from delaying everyone else from moving forwards.

It is not organised religion that isn’t hitting the spot. The problem is both the Church of England and the Church of Scotland are more concerned about being aligned with modern culture than Christianity. Christianity has always been counter cultural because natural human tendencies go against biblical teaching. Which is rather the point of Christianity.

YY to the CofE middle management approach to everything - I’ve sat through enough PCC meetings and sub committees for one lifetime…

My perception is that the CofE has fallen into the age-old trap of becoming a self-sustaining entity built on fudge and compromise rather than a body of Christian people working on their relationship with God. To be fair, if you look at the various roles the organisation has to fulfill, just by what the vicar does:
spiritual leader
teacher
building manager
line manager of paid and voluntary staff
counsellor
fund raiser
administrator
public speaker
Etc etc

it is unsustainable. The problem we have in England is that we are blessed/cursed with many fine, historical old buildings, which are loved by their local community who only step in them for Christmas carols, and who certainly don’t want to pay the eye watering costs of lighting, heating and maintaining said building, let alone enough to pay the stipend of a full time vicar. From what I saw of the finances, the CofE is very asset rich but cash poor. Like many old ladies, they will have to face the prospect of selling some of their assets and downsizing into more manageable locations and then maybe they could remember their raison d’etre is that Jesus bloke.

does anyone remember the BBC sitcom Rev., with Tom Hollander and Olivia Coleman? I was once at an event with our vicar and he noted the time and said he had to go so he could catch the latest episode. I made a comment about finding it funny and he said - no you misunderstand, it’s not a comedy, it’s a documentary and the proper response is to cry not laugh. Watch the first series in particular to get a good grasp of the issues facing those on the ground in the CofE.

I mean, they aren't wrong are they. The CoE, and various national Anglican churches in countries like the US and Canada, are dying, People are leaving, or barley showing up and not giving any cash, because they don't care that much. People with lukewarm commitment don't do the work to keep the institution running.

In terms of the Anglican Communion, the western churches have pretty forcefully tried to push the other, more conservative parts of the communion to accept theological changes they simply don't accept. That's not how apostolic churches work, normativly, it's almost meant to be the opposite of that - you can see how it's meant to work in the Eastern Orthodox churches still today, but essentially, any significant theological change would have to be agreed upon by a very strong majority, nearly all, bishops. Change comes when it's agreed upon as correct by all, that's what being in communion means. It means slow change, and sometimes none, but when it does happen it doesn't cause a massive schism.

Why wouldn't the other parts of the AC with really thriving churches be ticked off that a few Europeans with lukewarm parishes who think they are important are trying to push social ideas that come from western secular society?

As for music - I don't think it's the style so much that is the issue. Many churches with very traditional music and liturgy are popular in the same way some of the evangelical ones are. Maybe more so although it can be harder to find them, that kind of music isn't easy to create with untrained people.

What seems common to me in the successful ones is they are very engaged in a kind of mission and outreach, and there is a good proportion of members who are fairly serious about their religious belief.

It is worth finding out if on-line congregations have grown since the pandemic which is when that facility started to be used. A church I know of has a large on-line congregation since the pandemic.