How to respond to "oh there's always bad apples that ruin things for everyone" and "well women do that too" ?

[Ohisitjustme]

How to respond to this?

Discussed the trans issue.

I said I'm really concerned about women's safety in eg changing rooms. Any man can come in now and flash their penis and anyone who complains is a transphobe.
Response: well nobody should be flashing their penis around. There's always a bad apple in every barrel
Me: but there's now no recourse to complain without be labelled transphobic
Response: well there'll always be people who'll take advantage

Me: no woman now can get changed in M&S changing rooms without worrying about a man opening their curtain, pretending it's a mistake
Response: well women can be voyeurs too
Me: but women don't rape other women
Response: yes they do

Me: muslim women now can't use public toilets as men are allowed in
Response: so should everyone use the toilet of their birth sex?
Me: yes
Response: what about Butch lesbians who look masculine and are then reported for using women's toilets. And what about women living as men ; should they frighten women by using female toilets?
Me: everyone knows what a woman looks like vs what a man looks like.
Response: what about that Butch lesbian who was asked to leave?

I don't know what else to say. Apart from "seriously are you fucking serious?"

TW are male, with the same offending rates as all other males. They should be banned for reasons of safety, privacy and decency - the exact reasons why separate sex spaces are allowed under Equality law in the first place. TW who care about women use male spaces or lobby for a third space.

But it’s not a tiny minority, Xylophone. Transwomen commit more sexual offences than other men, as Ministry of Justice statistics have shown. Those in prison are more likely than other men to have been convicted of sexual offences.

And it’s not only about physical violence. Men who go into women’s spaces are often there to commit indecent exposure (which actually still is a criminal offence), or to hide in a cubicle and masturbate while listening to women peeing. Their presence is intended to cause distress and prevent women having peaceful use of women’s facilities.

No one seeks to ban transwomen alone, but to ban all men from women’s spaces.

I read someone argue (unsure if it was on FWR) that banning all TW from single sex spaces (because a tiny minority have attacked women) would be the same as banning all Muslims from shopping centres (because a tiny minority have carried out terrorist attacks)

It was useful for that person to demonstrate their lack of thinking so publicly.

Other posters have already addressed the "banning TW" issue but I just want to say that anyone who has to invoke Muslims in shopping centres to make their pro-trans argument isn't worth listening to. The pro-trans argument needs to stand on its own.

I go with the “I agree, some people are assholes so why are we making rules that deliberately encourage these specific people to be assholes?” Or versions thereof.

“I agree that some sexual assaults were committed by determined men on a women’s hospital ward in the past, so why do we want to make it easier for them in the future by letting in MORE men?”

If this is their argument then it follows it would apply to all men (not just TW).

Our argument is that all men (including TW) should be banned from women's single sex-spaces because a small number of men (including TW) pose a risk to women and also in order to maintain the dignity and privacy of women.

If someone is arguing that it is wrong to exclude an entire group because a small number of that group pose a risk then they must believe that all spaces should be mixed-sex. Why single out TW from that group of men? Why not gay men or boys who must also be at risk in male spaces? Must women take all those men/males who are at risk? Why this specific group of men?

I completely agree. I was just trying to figure out how I would have responded to that argument, and I think it would have been that-

Firstly, shopping centres are not single sex spaces where only women are vulnerable and need privacy, safety and dignity.

Secondly, terrorist attacks are carried out by men of all faiths or none, not just Muslims.
Therefore all men would have to be banned from shopping centres to prevent terrorist attacks, thus ironically rendering them single sex spaces

Thirdly, bomb/gun-carrying men in mixed-sex public places and men in single-sex female spaces are entirely different situations and arguments

I do sometimes get my arguments muddled up though so I'm happy to be corrected