Doctor Who- this might be the last straw even for me.

[TinselAngel]

For fucks sake

Juno Dawson as a writer.

Yikes, what a read 😏

The 'argument' in that article was a very by-the-numbers attempt at refuting criticism - lots of current genre programming is being criticised for its crap writing and for heavy-handed implementation of The Message.

What people like the article writer fail to appreciate is that fans love the progenitor shows and films of these rebooted franchises because of the way their writers examined ethical quandaries and social issues in subtle and nuanced ways, often leaving the viewer to make up his or her own mind on an issue. That is not the case with modern writing which merely attempts to re-educate the viewer on the approved way to think.

This is just a dumb article which doesn't say anything.

Hard to take seriously someone who calls Dune "woke" in any sense of the word.

Mentioning Ender's Game as an example of wokeness is actually hilarious. Everyone who's heard of Orson Scott Card knows that, whatever else he is, he's definitely not woke.

But he does know how to write a protagonist with a moral dilemma, which is something RTD has forgotten.

I think it probably just needs a break of a decade or so, like it did through the 90s and early 00s. Eccleston, Tennant, and Smith were all good in their own way but it's been consistently downhill since then. Was such a disappointment that they didn't give the first female doctor some better material to work with, and then the less said about what's happened since, the better.

I've recently watched the Capaldi ones, and I get that Clara was a bit overdone, but there was a lot of good stuff in those episodes.

We started the JW ones and DD(7) has lost interest after about 4 episodes.

I feel that all of RTD's faults as a writer were there in the beginning, but somehow back then they didn't get in the way of telling an entertaining story. And he's 20 years older and has spent way too much time in America.

And maybe part of it is that as a younger man he felt a bit humble at being the custodian of this bit of British culture. Now he just seems to feel that it's his sandbox to play in.

They shouldn't do it. They should quietly back away and leave it alone.

They definitely shouldn’t touch Buffy! What would be the point?

During the pandemic I rewatched some of Torchwood - wished I hadn't, early 'comedy' subplot is one of the men using an alien version of rohypnol on dates and this is portrayed as funny, and the general plots are awful. Avoid.
I haven't read the Radio Times article but if anyone thinks Dune is woke they clearly haven't read the book(s). The jihad is a bit of a clue...

Noooo, not Buffy!

Whedon may be problematic now, but back in the day Buffy was the perfect mix of plot, script and cast. For those of us without Sky there was the quest to find the late night “uncut” versions on bbc2, as the beeb for some reason considered it a kids show and screened it at 6pm, but cut to buggery for the sex and violence. I had a friend with Sky who used to record Buffy and Angel for me and we swapped video tapes every week. Ah, those were the days.

I think that part of the problem is that the author believes that Dr Who, as it is now, reflects changing society as it is now. It doesn’t. The author is in a woke bubble and can’t hear women’s loud and justified voices objecting to what is happening to the likes of Sandie Peggie.

Project “getting everyone to accept trans people” stopped working after activists moved from stealth and misrepresentation (Hayley in Corrie and [I think] Paris Green as being an innocent, passing transsexual) to reality (Hayley was played by a woman and Paris Green was reported to have a “seven inch surprise”) and then started to insert the genuine article.

Inserting the reality of these men everywhere is genuinely jarring. Even when they aren’t doing any active damage, their very presence in any female space causes mass discomfort and split opinions.

The author cannot see that, because of immersion in a lie that fails once it comes into contact with wider society.

I think it depends what they do with it.

”reboot” seems to mean “redo” a lot of the time, same characters, same age- charmed, roswell, Sabrina etc. putting the main character/s same age. Most of the time it can’t work, although I did enjoy the new Roswell, but not as a reboot, more of a reimagination.

i’m hopeful that they do a continuation, if the original cast is involved they can’t really go back to the Sunnydale teen era. So they pick up effectively in real time, with Buffy as a 45 year old mom still kicking ass, Giles as head of the council, willow teaching witchcraft somewhere, or completely magic teetotal living off grid.. Obviously then we’d need some world threatening event to bring them all together again 😀

while seriously disappointed with the whole Joss thing, pre internet i read all the little Buffy novels. The underlying writing by Christopher Golden, Mel Odom, Nancy Holder at al still held up, so I think it can be done without Joss.

Ha! I misread "The thing is, the argument that "wokeness" has ruined Doctor Who is not only predictable, boring and lazy" as "'wokeness' is predictable, boring and lazy' and really, that is the problem.

It's not that "woke" values in writing are inherently bad, it's that when writers start writing to an agenda to show certain values instead of creating characters with those values and allowing that to come through and be part of the narrative, the writing necessarily suffers.

They stop thinking "what might it mean to be trans (for example) in this situation?" and start thinking "what situation can I create to showcase how valid trans people are and how evil/laughable people questioning gender identity are?"

But people are not stupid. They see straight away the writers' agenda has changed from seeing them as people whose attention - literally giving the writers some of the finite minutes of our lives - is a privilege that needs to be earned through engaging and worthwhile stories, to seeing them as a captive audience who the writers have the right to educate as they see fit. And for most people, that's not a propsoition that interests them.

TL;dr: It's not woke characters and stories that are the problem, it's woke without characters and stories!

I think many ‘woke values’ are inherently bad. Not least the misogyny, racism, ageism and homophobia embedded in them.

It's not that "woke" values in writing are inherently bad, it's that when writers start writing to an agenda to show certain values instead of creating characters with those values and allowing that to come through and be part of the narrative, the writing necessarily suffers.

They stop thinking "what might it mean to be trans (for example) in this situation?" and start thinking "what situation can I create to showcase how valid trans people are and how evil/laughable people questioning gender identity are?"

Charlie Higson recently wrote a James Bond novel set in the present, where the villain is a very thinly veiled Nigel Farage and Bond's inner monologue bears a remarkable resemblance to a David Aaronovitch column. It was... not an artistic success.

One could say that MI6 is pretty woke these days, and Ian Fleming's social views wouldn't go down very well in current year intelligence services. But nobody reads Bond for realism, and it's really jarring for a character who's supposed to be a bit of a reactionary throwback.

I like Charlie, and he understands the character, so I prefer to think it was an experiment that didn't work. Perhaps the publishers wanted to test the water and see if there's a market for that kind of thing.

I think many ‘woke values’ are inherently bad. Not least the misogyny, racism, ageism and homophobia embedded in them.

My DC have complained about Avatar the Last Airbender re-make - one of the characters apparently ( I've not watched it ) starts out a very misogynistic and annoying and over the course of the events learns to value and trust in his female companions - his world view changes and he has character development.

I can't remember if it disney or netflick doing it but they've taken the misogyny out completely negating the entire character development for that character and kids say nothing replaced it - they were fond of original character and his arc and don't see the point of the entire re-make.

So I think good writing is key that is so frequently missing and what you do with it as PP have said.

I disagree. I think the core insight that power structures and the cultural power to define "normal" in society give some groups greater opportunities and stronger voices than others is true and I don't think recognising that and actively looking to question accepted narratives and social structures, and allowing people to talk about how the world and society looks from where they sit, is a bad thing.

I just think that Genderism as it is currently constructed is not aligned to those values. It's a malignant, repressive movement that has glommed on to progressive people by appropriating the language and style, but unlike anti-racism, anti-sexism, anti-abilism, anti-homophobia etc, there's nothing concrete underneath.

Genderism is the distillation of woke values.

I suppose the revived Who has been going for 20 years now. The classic series was past its best by 1983. And the classic series wasn't trying to squeeze ever more juice out of the same small group of writers.

Let it go on hiatus. The old episodes are out there to watch, and for the superfans Big Finish audio scratches a definite itch. Then, in 10 or 15 years, it might be possible to reinvent it with a different creative team. If there's still an audience for it.

That's just a string of words. Can you explain what you mean?

You appear to think that "misogyny, racism, ageism and homophobia" are embedded in woke values.

I agree these are hallmarks of the genderist movement but my post specifically excludes this movement as not being aligned to Woke values.

I agree that there is a lot of Omnicause and censorship going on right now.

However, the insight that ones sex, race, class, religion, age, lack of gender confirmity, physical disability, or other difference to a standard young white man means one has higher challenges and therefore greater barriers to achieving safety, stability and success in life than the standard middle class white man who is portrayed as society's default, and the belief that these barriers should be acknowledged, challenged and eventually removed, is IMO a very fair one.

Right wing commentators have seized on the word "woke" as a kind of catch all term to allow them to conflate the overreach that we currently see and the underlying values and insight of structural unfairness and codemn them all together. IMO "anti-woke" is nothing more than the RW version of the Omnicause.

You seem to think ‘woke’ means what you want it to mean, not what it has come to mean; the privileged beliefs of a mostly middle class, mostly white, liberal ‘progressive’ elite. You betray this when talking of ‘young white men’ whilst ignoring the fact that working class young white men of the most underachieving and marginalised group in the UK. Even those who do achieve at school are much less likely to get into university than any other group with the same grades.

The people that I have spoken to IRL who identify as 'progressive left' - and I think that most people would agree that it is not unfair to call them 'woke' - have said some pretty jaw-dropping things to me. For example, that it is impossible to be racist towards anyone with pale skin (yes, this was said by someone who is very clear that they are anti-racist). So when someone writes: 'I think many ‘woke values’ are inherently bad. Not least the misogyny, racism, ageism and homophobia embedded in them' I find that I cannot disagree with that based on what actual, real people have told me (not just internet hyperbole).

I also recognise everything on the list above from the people I am discussing, BTW - the self-declared RSOH.

• Same-sex attraction should be replaced with same-gender attraction (think about the cotton ceiling and boxer ceiling).
• Single-sex spaces should be replaced with single-gender spaces (Sarah Summers was clearly in the wrong).
• The bigots will die soon.
• Disabled or hospitalised people asking for same-sex care are bigoted.

... and so on.

You appear to think that "getting into university" is a golden ticket and all that needs to be considered. You also were so quick to assume you knew what I meant that you entirely missed my later reference to class.

I am talking about marginalisation in many facets - for example your young working class white man may have a worse shot at university, but is less likely to get stabbed at school than his black friend and less likely than his sister to suffer physical or financial domestic abuse. All of these have structural causes but all of them involve changing not just how society sees people but also how they see themselves.

Do you really think that supporting young white men means we can't support anyone else?

I know what you mean about early Torchwood. These days I much prefer the BIg Finish audio dramas (set in the pre-Children of Earth timeline so Ianto is still about). The audio dramas, on the whole, are thoughtful and well-plotted in comparison to quite a bit of RTD’s take on Torchwood. The BBC 4 audio episodes of Torchwood (from years ago) are of high quality too.

I’m also confused about someone describing Dune as woke 🤷‍♀️

IMO "anti-woke" is nothing more than the RW version of the Omnicause.

I think Trump and his cronies are increasingly using it that way. I am equally perturbed by the left Omincause stuff as well - it makes no sense to me as it losses all nauce and complexity and reduces complex situations to sound bites and slogans.

There are still people who see woke as just anti racist - where as I'd view it as a set of luxury beliefs held by higher sociel economic classes.

To me whole sci-fi as a genre is to prompt thought and consider new ideas and perspectives while enjoying an engaging story.

I can't rewatch Buffy - and haven't tried Tourchwood - the last UK series which was gripping viewing at time but I never wanted to see again - and US version didn't keep my interest.

I'm wondered if was the strong female charcters in Dune provoking the "woke" label but apparently it's a "white savior trope" and "cultural appropriation" - which makes no sense to me and ignores the plot entirely.