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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Doctor Who- this might be the last straw even for me.

549 replies

TinselAngel · 27/01/2025 14:02

For fucks sake Confused

Juno Dawson as a writer.

Doctor Who- this might be the last straw even for me.
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VickyEadieofThigh · 04/02/2025 12:33

CaptainCarrotsBigSword · 27/01/2025 14:02

I stopped watching it ages ago. But this doesn't surprise me.

Me too - even before RTD returned. But he's embarked on a mission to employ only his pets in the overall team and he gets right on my wick anyway...

CuriousAlien · 04/02/2025 13:48

UtopiaPlanitia · 04/02/2025 01:57

As evidence for the case that modern scfi writers/producers don't know what they're doing with longstanding, beloved fictional characters and universes that they don't understand, I present two excellent reviews of Section 31which point out problems common to a lot of things that are being produced at the moment:

Spoilers in the videos by the way!!

Oh dear, I didn't even make it half way through the first video. DH watched Section 31 because apparently "all star trek is good". I think this might have challenged his deeply held conviction, I'll check.

I tried to watch Foundation but it seemed to have nothing to do with the books and I wasn't interested.

I'm not sure I can be bothered with sci fi anymore. Younger me would be horrified. What did I used to love it for? The creativity, the philosophy, the playfulness, the intelligence, the what ifs and the curiosity. The escapism. The insistence on making its own rules? I don't know. It used to make me feel like I was flying, exploring, encountering, evolving.

Now it feels shallow, repetitive and liturgical.

DeanElderberry · 04/02/2025 14:02

Luckily I enjoy rewatching (and rereading) and have lots of DVDs.

CuriousAlien · 04/02/2025 14:04

@DeanElderberry this is the way

(Ok yes so I did watch some of the mandolorian but after a couple of episodes felt like I was watching the lone ranger in space)

SionnachRuadh · 04/02/2025 15:37

Often I think the big franchises have been taken over by people who just don't understand or respect the IPs and don't know why they're making these movies or shows.

Then again, Doctor Who was taken over by fanboys - or at least RTD's clique with their own very specific ideas of what it should be - and look how that turned out. So maybe it really is a general decline in storytelling.

Not that I'm any script guru, but I could write a knockoff John Carter story and do a better job than Abrams bringing his mystery box to Star Trek.

UtopiaPlanitia · 05/02/2025 01:41

CuriousAlien · 04/02/2025 13:48

Oh dear, I didn't even make it half way through the first video. DH watched Section 31 because apparently "all star trek is good". I think this might have challenged his deeply held conviction, I'll check.

I tried to watch Foundation but it seemed to have nothing to do with the books and I wasn't interested.

I'm not sure I can be bothered with sci fi anymore. Younger me would be horrified. What did I used to love it for? The creativity, the philosophy, the playfulness, the intelligence, the what ifs and the curiosity. The escapism. The insistence on making its own rules? I don't know. It used to make me feel like I was flying, exploring, encountering, evolving.

Now it feels shallow, repetitive and liturgical.

I do tend to audition and drop quite a few scifi telly shows in recent years because of shallowness or preaching. And I have another problem with modern telly too: worrying that when I've found something good, it will inevitably have ID pol introduced and that will ruin the escapism.

I started watching Motherland Fort Salem which is a female-focussed story based on the idea that the Salem witch trials was defeated by a witch who fought back then negotiated with the American revolutionaries to help them fight the British and gain independence. And for 300 years since then, witches and warlocks have been a major part of the armed forces of every nation. The story is set in the Army training college for young witches where they learn to be part of the US armed forces.

MFS was originally supposed to be a video game but was instead turned into a telly show, so it has lots of excellent world-building and lore that were obviously worked out for the video game - in that way it resembles The Expanse which had a similar type of origin. However, as I'm watching it, and really enjoying it, I'm worried that it will start plopping IDPol into the storyline whether it applies or not, or that it will introduce a male character and say that this character is a woman - an all-female cast and space seems too tempting a target for activist fans to avoid.

I'm most of the way through S2 of 3 and so far there hasn't been anything that pulled me out of the fictional world but I do keep thinking that there's no way that something developed in modern America and filmed in Canada won't introduce identity politics at some stage and I think that would ruin the vibe of the story. It seems to be that it's the sort of show that Tumblr would love and the fandom would demand changes to fit their political worldview and that would be bringing modern ID pol into a fictional world where it doesn't exist.

Sometimes, I really dislike the notice that showrunners/writers take of social media fandom - they used to ignore internet fandom in the old days but now they're desperate for engagement and so many crap ideas (especially in terms of shipping) have been adopted by shows because loud fans want these things to happen.

Flipflopandflywomenarentxy · 05/02/2025 02:10

So.... Lucifer?

It is clearly the most vacuous superficial TV ever, and yet...

Grown up characters with grown up emotions and problems
Goodies that do bad things and baddies that want to be good
Families that love each other but get things so wrong
Working out where you are between your parents expectations, the big status job, the person everyone thinks you are and what you are good at

Anyone with me?

CuriousAlien · 05/02/2025 08:51

I watched Motherland Fort Salem. I did stay engaged and watch all 3 seasons. From what I remember there is a female non-binary style character further in but it felt in keeping with the world to me.
This is the type of show I'd like to see more of. Like the Worst Witch, an ensemble of women or girls.
And actually that's one of the things I did like about the first 2 seasons of Discovery. There was a variety of interesting female characters.
And why although in theory I don't mind a female Dr Who (as long as she is well written), it feels like a woman being shoehorned into what was traditionally a geeky male role model. I don't particularly need a female Sherlock Holmes but I do want a Miss Marple if you see what I mean.

ErrolTheDragon · 05/02/2025 08:54

And actually that's one of the things I did like about the first 2 seasons of Discovery. There was a variety of interesting female characters.

Jett Reno was one of my all-time favourites.

CuriousAlien · 05/02/2025 09:06

Jett Reno, yes!

CrossPurposes · 05/02/2025 09:24

Discovery's quality very much correlated with Michael's hair length.

Lunatone · 05/02/2025 09:26

SionnachRuadh · 03/02/2025 15:49

I've heard many thinks blame nepotism, lack of life experience, writing room constraints from higher ups, even time given - I do wonder though if it's just the assumption that the audience is thick.

Critical Drinker points to lack of life experience, and I think he's onto something. Like one of the things about 1970s Hollywood, though the pool of writers may have been more male and white than today, lots of them had experience working blue collar jobs, or as military veterans, or just doing things outside the creative industries. And that showed in the stories they wrote.

These days it's mostly nepo babies and/or people who've been through the necessary degrees at elite colleges.

I feel the best of old Who comes from writers like Robert Holmes or Malcolm Hulke who had experience in the real world, and that comes through in how they wrote characters. There are lots of writers now who have done all the courses and know all the tropes but don't have that real life background. It shows.

That's very true, I think. Robert Holmes had served in the army, and had been a policeman. Malcolm Hulke had been typist from the British Communist Party. And this principle extended to everyone on the show. William Hartnell had been a jockey, Patrick Troughton the captain of a coastal gunboat, and Jon Pertwee (allegedly) a naval spy and a radio comedian. Verity Lambert, the first producer of Doctor Who, had made her name at the age of 23 when, as a production assistant, she directed the cameras from a studio gallery to cover up the death of an actor in a live drama broadcast.

And it's also worth noting that television used to be an incredibly hard-working industry. It was pretty normal to have a 48-week season of a show, and the people working on the production would effectively be doing a nine-to-five job. It wouldn't be unknown to have a serial start to broadcast before the script of the final episode was written. Occasionally you would start to shoot footage before the first episode was written...

So, this was not necessary a fun way to make television, and it is easy to see why production companies moved away from this model, but it provided experience, encouraged creativity, and encouraged resilience, responsiveness, and, above all, talent. The showrunners of modern television have nothing on their equivalents of fifty years ago.

CuriousAlien · 05/02/2025 09:46

CrossPurposes · 05/02/2025 09:24

Discovery's quality very much correlated with Michael's hair length.

This is true! But why??? Any theories?

And back to Dr Who... Maybe there's something about life experience that correlates with ambiguity, leaving you with more questions than answers. And sci fi can do that really well and definitely Dr Who has in the past (and Star Trek). A feeling of aliveness in contrast to preachy writing which is about the correct answer being demonstrated to the audience and is therefore dead.

TempestTost · 05/02/2025 10:50

I would make a guess that a huge part of the difference with people who had worked in other industries, particularly places like the military, was that these guys had met and interacted with people from all differernt parts of life and social classes. And also in settings where there was a high degree of interdependence. There is something really different about a place like a military unit where people rely on each other in such a basic life and death way, it creates a kind of intimacy and bond even with people who, under normal circumstances, you wouldn't like or have much in common with.

I think this is also what has gone wrong in journalism, for what it's worth, it also used to be a profession where people came from a variety of backgrounds, and were often self educated. Not so today.

Treaclewell · 05/02/2025 20:16

We've just watched 'The War Games' and it was good. Very. Terrance Dicks and Matthew Hulke. Bring back that sort of writing.

Jux · 06/02/2025 16:02

I have watched Dr Who since the very first one (my dad was into sci fi and it was about the only thing that was sci fi on tv). We loved it as kids and I remember Hartnell well. My fave doc has always been Troughton. Tennant brought it back (I'd stopped watching around wimpy Davidson era) but then it forgot it was a kid's prog and was for mums who fancied Tenannt. Completely ruined it. Stuck with it, liked Matt Smith's doc, Capaldi's was OK. Josie thingy, gurning everywhere - NO. Haven't watched it since.

Remember it's for kids, BBC, then you might get it right again.

UtopiaPlanitia · 09/02/2025 01:39

I'm watching this video at the moment and thought the posters on this thread might find it interesting/enjoyable. I'm finding it a good analysis of why NuTrek is not written well in comparison to previous Trek shows:

I also think the criticisms apply to other beloved scifi series that haven't been managed well in recent years.

One of the best comments under the video is very relevant:

"Marketing and corporations can’t tell stories. They mine known properties for profit, clueless of what made them valuable in the first place. That’s it. That’s the problem."

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/MdLHKdn0JTY?feature=shared

UtopiaPlanitia · 09/02/2025 01:57

I found another comment under the video I'm watching that I think describes why a lot of formerly intelligent and inspiring scifi series are no longer well made and no longer resemble their progenitor shows/films:

"About a year ago, Alan Moore was interviewed by a small Youtuber from his hometown, and he said something which constantly comes back to me now, and which I deeply associate with why I like star trek so much, but dislike nutrek so much:

"We have to be able to imagine a better world, or we're never going to have one."

Trek has always represented this to me, and to many people. My favorite Trek quote, which I know by heart, is: "A lot has changed in the past 300 years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for posessions. We've grown out of our infancy."

This is the world I dream of. (Yes, I know that line was reworded for one of the TNG movies, but this is better.)"

MakeYourOwnMusicStartYourOwnDance · 09/02/2025 02:04

Jux · 06/02/2025 16:02

I have watched Dr Who since the very first one (my dad was into sci fi and it was about the only thing that was sci fi on tv). We loved it as kids and I remember Hartnell well. My fave doc has always been Troughton. Tennant brought it back (I'd stopped watching around wimpy Davidson era) but then it forgot it was a kid's prog and was for mums who fancied Tenannt. Completely ruined it. Stuck with it, liked Matt Smith's doc, Capaldi's was OK. Josie thingy, gurning everywhere - NO. Haven't watched it since.

Remember it's for kids, BBC, then you might get it right again.

Remember it's for kids, BBC, then you might get it right again

Just because that's your experience, doesn't mean it's everyone's.
Know loads of adults, myself included who are big Dr Who fans.
Some who are fans from Jon Pertwee as a kid and still love Dr Who now in their 50s

Littoralzone · 09/02/2025 08:20

MakeYourOwnMusicStartYourOwnDance · 09/02/2025 02:04

Remember it's for kids, BBC, then you might get it right again

Just because that's your experience, doesn't mean it's everyone's.
Know loads of adults, myself included who are big Dr Who fans.
Some who are fans from Jon Pertwee as a kid and still love Dr Who now in their 50s

Just because adults enjoy it does not mean it was not a children’s program. Lots of adults like Harry Potter too.

Chersfrozenface · 09/02/2025 09:03

Littoralzone · 09/02/2025 08:20

Just because adults enjoy it does not mean it was not a children’s program. Lots of adults like Harry Potter too.

Remember Tiswas? A children's TV show, that was hugely popular with adults.

I knew of a workingmen's club that opened early on Saturdays to show Tiswas. Did a roaring trade.

DeanElderberry · 09/02/2025 09:57

UtopiaPlanitia · 09/02/2025 01:57

I found another comment under the video I'm watching that I think describes why a lot of formerly intelligent and inspiring scifi series are no longer well made and no longer resemble their progenitor shows/films:

"About a year ago, Alan Moore was interviewed by a small Youtuber from his hometown, and he said something which constantly comes back to me now, and which I deeply associate with why I like star trek so much, but dislike nutrek so much:

"We have to be able to imagine a better world, or we're never going to have one."

Trek has always represented this to me, and to many people. My favorite Trek quote, which I know by heart, is: "A lot has changed in the past 300 years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of things. We've eliminated hunger, want, the need for posessions. We've grown out of our infancy."

This is the world I dream of. (Yes, I know that line was reworded for one of the TNG movies, but this is better.)"

I get a bit annoyed with Jean-Luc when he goes all prissy, particularly since he goes in for something he calls archaeology but is really treasure hunting. Also his naive atheism. He does change a bit as time goes on - see the woven Mintaka textile on the back of his chair for years. I always wonder did being Locutus open him to wider ideas, while leaving him forced to self-censor.

Among many reasons I love DS9 best is more honesty around economics - Latinum, transporter credits, self sealing stembolts and all, and also religion - when Keiko tries to enforce Starfleet anti-religious intolerance she gets her arse handed to her.

UtopiaPlanitia · 09/02/2025 18:31

DeanElderberry · 09/02/2025 09:57

I get a bit annoyed with Jean-Luc when he goes all prissy, particularly since he goes in for something he calls archaeology but is really treasure hunting. Also his naive atheism. He does change a bit as time goes on - see the woven Mintaka textile on the back of his chair for years. I always wonder did being Locutus open him to wider ideas, while leaving him forced to self-censor.

Among many reasons I love DS9 best is more honesty around economics - Latinum, transporter credits, self sealing stembolts and all, and also religion - when Keiko tries to enforce Starfleet anti-religious intolerance she gets her arse handed to her.

Hope you don’t mind a long response 😊

I’ve always seen Starfleet as pro their members having religion if they wanted to but that it shouldn’t be allowed to interfere with their duties as members of the fleet. I suppose I think of Starfleet as being modelled on the original civil rights movement in America: everybody working together based on merit and judging people for the content of their character and not the colour of their skin (or their planetary origin).

Picard’s crew practice elements of their religions, for example Ro Laren is given permission to wear her Bajoran earring, Worf gets time to go to Borath to spend time with the monks. What Picard doesn’t do is let crew’s cultural or religious beliefs interfere with his mission - Picard even tells Worf at one stage, after Worf kills Duras for murdering K’Ehleyr, that there are representatives of X number of cultures on the Enterprise and he expects them not to let their cultural beliefs interfere with their duties as officers.

I always see Picard himself as interested in other species’ religious and cultural beliefs, often as part of his (intermittent) interest in archaeology. He respects other cultures even if he disagrees with their practices - he doesn’t try to stop Lwaxana Troi’s boyfriend from euthanising himself in line with the values of his culture, he doesn’t try to stop Riker’s girlfriend from undergoing conversion therapy, he is willing to let Worf commit ritual suicide after he sustains a paralysing spinal injury.

Picard sees himself as unfit to stand in judgement of others. In a lot of cases like these, Kirk would have beamed down to a planet, pointed out where they were wrong, and stopped whatever cultural practice they were doing that he felt was bad, particularly if it was a threat to his crew - he believed in universal moral truths. Picard was more into relativism.

When it comes to DS9, I always viewed the Ferengi stories as a critique of people who believed American free market capitalism could solve everything. They were a great contrast with the Federation’s post-scarcity societies. Although, Quark had an astute view of humans: “They're a wonderful, friendly people as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working, but take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same, friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.”

And, if I’m honest, I find the Bajorans annoyingly religious - being Irish I understand how culture and religion play an important unifying role in societies who are fighting against colonisation, but I still find the Bajorans OTT. I also think Sisko really enjoys being the Emissary a little too much and begins to think too highly of himself and his own decisions, especially during the Dominion War.

Having said all of this, I don’t see NuTrek as being able to tease out the cultural and moral nuances about the various issues raised in older series of Trek. And the one thing I loved about every series of Trek was the examination of morality and viewing elements of our own culture through the lens of an alien race’s behaviour. And I liked the fact that often there was no one right answer presented to the viewer.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/02/2025 20:40

And, if I’m honest, I find the Bajorans annoyingly religious - being Irish I understand how culture and religion play an important unifying role in societies who are fighting against colonisation, but I still find the Bajorans OTT.

I'm not sure the central plot of the whole series- the 'gods' who are real entities - would have worked very well if they weren't pretty religious!

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