You can reject masculinity, it doesn't mean you can claim womanhood.

[Travail]

Just had a huge argument with my (in all other ways) delightful son.

Who has two mtf trans friends.

One of whom is 6' 2", and other than saying he's a woman, and changing his name to a gender neutral preference is just a big bloke. and I am kind to him, I respect his pronouns.

BUT

I told my son (after a discussion about rape), that I am offended that a 6' 2 bloke that presents as a man claims to be a fucking woman.

I understand rejecting the 21stC model of masculinity.

You absolutely cannot claim womanhood, as an 18 YO, 6'2" bloke.

It's not a get out clause.

You have to have the conversation about masculinity.

You don't get to be a woman just because you say.

I've given birth to two children. I breastfed them for three years.

I have been raped. Twice. By men.

And I am offended by an 18 YO who claims to feel like a woman.

It's fucking offensive.

As I said to my son, it's absolutely fine to reject masculinity.

You don't get to claim womanhood as a default.

You need to have a conversation with men.

Not me.

I didn't want to read and run, I am sorry about what happened to you. I totally get it. The madness of it is enough to drive you insane.

I can't remember who came up with the quote but it's always appropriate for these scenarios:

"'Woman' is not a feeling or an idea inside a man's head. We are women born, not man-made."

💐

Yes!

Born. Not man made.

That is a really really good quote. Thank you so much. I will remember that.

It is, isn't it.

Born not worn.

I think it is an age thing, I have had similar discussions with my DC. As a teenager I can imagine I would have been drawn to the whole non-binary idea, I was quite alternative. It’s only my life experiences as I’ve got older- having DC, experiencing discrimination and sexism that have really made me identify so firmly as a woman.

Does your son expect you to view them as women?

I have a similar age ds with lots of this in his friendship group - mostly girls claiming to be boys but also a 6ft boy who's just adopted a (very middle aged) female name and some bad earrings and is now "she". All lovely kids - slight outsiders, probably autistic, would have been goths back in the day. I feel very much like you about it all. What does your son think? What was the argument? It must be so hard for them to go against the grain if all their friends are on the gender train

I am offended that a 6' 2 bloke that presents as a man claims to be a fucking woman.
It's just this isn't it.
It's offensive.
That everyone can't see it is offensive is more offensive.
That we can't disrespect their identity but they can disrespect ours. To just come in and trash womanhood.
And it's bloody colonisation!

OP it's obviously a lie, but unfortunately significant brain washing has been going on in schools. The be kind mantra has taken over your son's ability to be honest even with himself. Try helping him to be reflective at home, to become aware of sex and sexism as being reality.
It isn't possible for gender to exist beyond being a concept as it contradicts sex, and sex is real.

Ya, he does.

I will 'respect the pronouns'

I will absolutely not accept Ashley as a woman though.

He knows he's not a woman.

I feel it's a piss-take.

I would completely support Ashley rejecting whatever he wants to reject.

You've got a nob though mate.

You have a penis.

Women do not have cocks.

You are completely correct, of course.

I keep having this with DH. He agrees with GC and is on board but every now and again he'll show that he doesn't really understand and thinks that 'genuine' TW should be treated as women because #kind.

And my DC agree with all the logic but don't have enough life experience to realise the many reasons for identifying as trans and the impacts on women and girls of allowing TW in because it opens the door to all men.

I think the tide is turning. I support people to present themselves as the choose and to think of themselves in any way they wish right up until the point they are dictating someone else's language or behaviour then they can fuck right off.

What does ‘respect the pronouns’ actually mean?
What pronouns has he adopted?

Some of us on here make the point from time to time that we still view transmen as women and however irritating we might find aspects of their presentation (Elliot Page comes to mind) we want to protect them from the physical harms associated with transition and well as the problems that made them turn to gender identification as a way out. They're 'one of us'.

But I have not yet read anything where men say the same about transwomen. Supporting the ideology seems to sit comfortably with rejecting the individuals.

Interesting. Thank you @Travail for starting the thread.

PS, sorry you've had to walk a rough road.

It is an utter piss-take. It's gaslighting of the highest order. That someone so obviously NOT female can just change their name and go 'Ta-da!' I'm female. Fuck that. It's utter nonsense and to expect everyone to play along and say 'she' is just insulting to every woman on the planet.

Tell your son that NO male, no matter how he identifies, has or ever will have the right to tell a woman what a woman is. If that causes hurt feelz then tough.

But also ask him why he is so keen to exclude someone slightly eccentric or nonconforming from the insiders 'us' club of men.

I absolutely agree, you can be a feminine man, it doesn't make you a bloody woman.

Womanhood is a birthright.

I often wonder how people would react if I start saying my dog is a cat
You can put a name to anything but genetics will always win

I'm a lecturer. I feel the same. I find it stressful to be forced to use she pronouns or even he pronouns for teenagers who aggressively assert they are whatever they decide to be.

Having gone through abuse at the hands of men and been gaslighted and controlled, I find it really quite awful to have to lie about reality. And I know if I said this out loud anywhere at work I'd be in serious bother.

Currently have a young trans woman who to outward appearances is a young man wearing nail varnish with a middle aged woman's name. I have a young woman who is just a petite young woman who wears no makeup and always chooses jeans.i must call her he. There are (thankfully) no hormones or surgery involved.

I try and avoid the pronouns as much as possible.

They're generally lovely individuals and I care about all my students so I am always sensitive but I do find it hard. My reality and experiences that have shaped my world view apparently make me a bigot in this world of 'with me or against me' shallow virtue signalling.