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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Any news on progress with the BMA evaluation of Cass Review?

29 replies

Gettingmadderallthetime · 25/01/2025 02:57

From their press release dated 31 July. My emphasis. The year mentioned was 2024.

'The BMA is calling for a pause to the implementation of the Cass Review’s recommendations whilst the task and finish group carries out its work. It is expected to be completed towards the end of this year.'
https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-to-undertake-an-evaluation-of-the-cass-review-on-gender-identity-services-for-children-and-young-people

Press release icon

BMA to undertake an evaluation of the Cass Review on gender identity services for children and young people - BMA media centre - BMA

Press release from the BMA

https://www.bma.org.uk/bma-media-centre/bma-to-undertake-an-evaluation-of-the-cass-review-on-gender-identity-services-for-children-and-young-people

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Fordian · 25/01/2025 13:07

Gone rather quiet? Like Khelif 'sueing' JKR?

Gettingmadderallthetime · 25/01/2025 17:13

Well it's not just that they have not come up with something yet (or perhaps have completed but daren't publish?) They asked that Cass-informed changes should wait until the great BMA has spoken. I am interested in what they have to say. (HINT: The more time passes the less they will find. More evidence does not help them).

OP posts:
Runor · 25/01/2025 18:12

Any respect I did have for the BMA evaporated months ago. It’s a union which is manifestly failing to represent its members, and demonstrating some pretty unprofessional and unethical behaviour for…you know….doctors 🙄😡

fanOfBen · 25/01/2025 18:25

The most recent info I could find was here, where it is said that the task and finish group will report this month:
https://www.independentnurse.co.uk/content/news/the-cass-review-and-its-findings/

Note that under pressure the BMA did retreat to deciding to be neutral on Cass in the meantime.

The Cass Review and its findings - Independent Nurse

Amanda Halliwell looks at the results of the recent review of gender identity services in the UK

https://www.independentnurse.co.uk/content/news/the-cass-review-and-its-findings

Brainworm · 25/01/2025 18:45

The BMA is being pilloried by what seems like the majority of the membership for the position it has taken on physician associates. Some are suggestion that it is likely to fold as swathes of medics are cancelling their membership.

SinnerBoy · 25/01/2025 20:10

I wonder if they've simply realised that they're spouting a load of mad old, entirely insupportable bollocks and are hoping that everyone will forget about it?

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/05/2025 00:30

Some new information from Dave Hewitt about the BMA 'evaluation' of the Cass Review.

https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/embodiment-goals

Here are some excerpts from his article:

Last year I wrote a piece about the BMA Council’s decision to publicly critique the Cass Review. In that, I made numerous criticisms of a preprint paper which the BMA relied upon.

This week, this preprint has finally been published, and very little of substance has changed. It has been reformatted and reordered, some of the claims and citations updated, others toned down a little but in essence it is broadly the same, so every criticism I made last year still applies. To summarise here though, the majority of the paper is directed at the methodology used by the York University systematic reviews of the evidence base, and seizing upon trivia to cast doubt on their results.

The real starting point of the critique is that, whatever methodology was used, the Cass Review and the York University team proceeded from a faulty perspective.
That is, they approached this by thinking about children and young people in distress, and investigated whether treatments provided to them did actually improve their mental health and wellbeing. This, according to the critique, is the wrong thing to do….

….The authors believe this, because to them the purpose of allegedly “life-saving” interventions is not to improve mental wellbeing, but to fulfil cosmetic goals - and it is this fulfilment that will then consequentially improve mental health through realising one’s authentic self….

….This is somewhat contradictory, in that mental health improvements are promoted as a “logical consequence” but attempting to evaluate whether this is actually true by checking to see if there are actually any mental health benefits is “misguided”.

…. This is quite fundamental to their critique: that Cass should have considered puberty blockers to be as straightforward as taking the contraceptive pill, and by not taking that as the starting point the findings and recommendations are flawed. The argument being made by analogy is that we do not pathologise young people seeking contraception nor do we consider contraception an intervention to improve their mental health, but instead see it as a choice relating to bodily autonomy. So, is that a valid comparison?
There is one citation for this sentence in the paper, and it goes to an earlier paper by one of the co-authors, Florence Ashley, in an ethics journal, making this argument from a rhetorical, ethical and philosophical standpoint. This is not a definitive medical consensus, rather it is the strong opinion of one of the authors…..

….This is not evidence based medicine - it is a philosophical argument to conceptualise medical interventions not as actual healthcare, but as liberal, consumerist choices that cannot be denied. The customer, after all, is always right…..

….Florence Ashley is positing a specific conceptualisation of gender, gender identity and transition - one rooted in consumerism and justified by idealised notions of the self and personal autonomy. From Ashley’s perspective, this overrides the need for evidence - indeed, attempting to collect evidence that doesn’t already accept this perspective is condemned. The evidence must be considered enough already, for this conceptualisation to be true…..

….Ashley’s work is itself a tangled web of philosophical claims held together by self-citations, circular arguments and begged questions that sits right at the heart of the current debate: the ethics and safety and rationale behind paediatric transition. If clinicians can’t even agree why a treatment is being carried out, what it is supposed to do, and what a “good” outcome is supposed to be, how is anyone supposed to evaluate whether it is working?

The Cass Review made the fatal mistake of diligently checking to see if a medical treatment actually had any sort of clinical justification, or led to any improvements whatsoever. As such, every piece of evidence gathered is suspect, because it starts from a perspective of pathology, of treating a condition, of alleviating distress, of minimising harm, of paternalism, of gatekeeping, of thinking doctors know best, of not believing children when they say who they are, of interfering with self-actualisation.

Embodiment Goals

Ideological attacks on the Cass Review finally find a publisher

https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/embodiment-goals

Gettingmadderallthetime · 22/05/2025 05:53

Wow. Thank you. That is enlightening. And very disheartening.

OP posts:
DisappearingGirl · 22/05/2025 07:47

Thanks for the summary, very interesting.

Especially this bit:

This is not evidence based medicine - it is a philosophical argument to conceptualise medical interventions not as actual healthcare, but as liberal, consumerist choices that cannot be denied.

And this:

If clinicians can’t even agree why a treatment is being carried out, what it is supposed to do, and what a “good” outcome is supposed to be, how is anyone supposed to evaluate whether it is working?

I think this was one of Cass's key criticisms of the evidence, which also has implications for the puberty blocker trial: that it's unclear what the main Aim / Outcome Measure is when using puberty blockers for gender dysphoria. It's not "do they block puberty" as we already know they do. It surely has to be whether they improve long-term quality of life.

DenmarkStreet · 22/05/2025 08:10

This Florence Ashley? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Ashley

Why is a Canadian lawyer involved in a medical review in the UK?

Florence Ashley - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Ashley

Shortshriftandlethal · 22/05/2025 08:21

UtopiaPlanitia · 22/05/2025 00:30

Some new information from Dave Hewitt about the BMA 'evaluation' of the Cass Review.

https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/embodiment-goals

Here are some excerpts from his article:

Last year I wrote a piece about the BMA Council’s decision to publicly critique the Cass Review. In that, I made numerous criticisms of a preprint paper which the BMA relied upon.

This week, this preprint has finally been published, and very little of substance has changed. It has been reformatted and reordered, some of the claims and citations updated, others toned down a little but in essence it is broadly the same, so every criticism I made last year still applies. To summarise here though, the majority of the paper is directed at the methodology used by the York University systematic reviews of the evidence base, and seizing upon trivia to cast doubt on their results.

The real starting point of the critique is that, whatever methodology was used, the Cass Review and the York University team proceeded from a faulty perspective.
That is, they approached this by thinking about children and young people in distress, and investigated whether treatments provided to them did actually improve their mental health and wellbeing. This, according to the critique, is the wrong thing to do….

….The authors believe this, because to them the purpose of allegedly “life-saving” interventions is not to improve mental wellbeing, but to fulfil cosmetic goals - and it is this fulfilment that will then consequentially improve mental health through realising one’s authentic self….

….This is somewhat contradictory, in that mental health improvements are promoted as a “logical consequence” but attempting to evaluate whether this is actually true by checking to see if there are actually any mental health benefits is “misguided”.

…. This is quite fundamental to their critique: that Cass should have considered puberty blockers to be as straightforward as taking the contraceptive pill, and by not taking that as the starting point the findings and recommendations are flawed. The argument being made by analogy is that we do not pathologise young people seeking contraception nor do we consider contraception an intervention to improve their mental health, but instead see it as a choice relating to bodily autonomy. So, is that a valid comparison?
There is one citation for this sentence in the paper, and it goes to an earlier paper by one of the co-authors, Florence Ashley, in an ethics journal, making this argument from a rhetorical, ethical and philosophical standpoint. This is not a definitive medical consensus, rather it is the strong opinion of one of the authors…..

….This is not evidence based medicine - it is a philosophical argument to conceptualise medical interventions not as actual healthcare, but as liberal, consumerist choices that cannot be denied. The customer, after all, is always right…..

….Florence Ashley is positing a specific conceptualisation of gender, gender identity and transition - one rooted in consumerism and justified by idealised notions of the self and personal autonomy. From Ashley’s perspective, this overrides the need for evidence - indeed, attempting to collect evidence that doesn’t already accept this perspective is condemned. The evidence must be considered enough already, for this conceptualisation to be true…..

….Ashley’s work is itself a tangled web of philosophical claims held together by self-citations, circular arguments and begged questions that sits right at the heart of the current debate: the ethics and safety and rationale behind paediatric transition. If clinicians can’t even agree why a treatment is being carried out, what it is supposed to do, and what a “good” outcome is supposed to be, how is anyone supposed to evaluate whether it is working?

The Cass Review made the fatal mistake of diligently checking to see if a medical treatment actually had any sort of clinical justification, or led to any improvements whatsoever. As such, every piece of evidence gathered is suspect, because it starts from a perspective of pathology, of treating a condition, of alleviating distress, of minimising harm, of paternalism, of gatekeeping, of thinking doctors know best, of not believing children when they say who they are, of interfering with self-actualisation.

I've always postulated that gender identity theory/ideology is the apotheosis of the late stage cult of american individualism and consumerism. It is all about off the shelf, 'individualistic' identities that can be purchased.

teawamutu · 22/05/2025 08:47

DenmarkStreet · 22/05/2025 08:10

This Florence Ashley? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Ashley

Why is a Canadian lawyer involved in a medical review in the UK?

Can't imagine.

Any news on progress with the BMA evaluation of Cass Review?
ItsCoolForCats · 22/05/2025 08:52

Wow, surely if this is what they are basing their critique on, they will lose all credibility if they publish it?

Taytoface · 22/05/2025 10:07

Well, that's OK then, I don't think we have a National Self Actualisation Service.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/05/2025 16:00

ItsCoolForCats · 22/05/2025 08:52

Wow, surely if this is what they are basing their critique on, they will lose all credibility if they publish it?

I'd be very surprised if they actually publish anything credible. They're already seen as clowns in the medical world.

hawheresthebmareviewnow · 11/06/2025 23:20

Still waiting. The BMA have embarrassed themselves. They relied on being a monopoly union and didn’t expect rigorous challenges. Join the HCSA instead!

KidsDr · 12/06/2025 10:02

I've avoided weighing in on this issue generally but as a member I am ashamed of the BMA's position. I won't be complicit in the medical abuse of children and adolescents. If that makes me transphobic so be it. The relationship between trans identity, autism and previous experiences of CSA (at least in teenagers) is obvious and undeniable when working in paediatrics. What a scandal all of this is going to be.

AnnaMagnani · 12/06/2025 13:19

God I'm old enough to have dropped my BMA membership when they were obsessed with banning boxing.

They are never obsessed with anything to do with the actual priorities of their membership.

lcakethereforeIam · 25/06/2025 14:57

Bit of an update, the first link should be an archive. I hope it works.

Doctors revolt against BMA over ‘its pro-trans ideology’ https://share.google/FsGljYxNY8pt0dogE

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/25/doctors-revolt-against-bma-over-its-pro-trans-ideology/

PrettyDamnCosmic · 25/06/2025 15:26

You have to despair of journalists when they make such howlers as this-

Insiders claimed that “ideologues” have infiltrated the medical regulator and “silenced” doctors who backed last year’s report by Baroness Cass into the care of children who think they are transgender.

The GMC is the medical regulator. The BMA is the trade union.

DisappearingGirl · 25/06/2025 16:13

lcakethereforeIam · 25/06/2025 14:57

Bit of an update, the first link should be an archive. I hope it works.

Doctors revolt against BMA over ‘its pro-trans ideology’ https://share.google/FsGljYxNY8pt0dogE

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/06/25/doctors-revolt-against-bma-over-its-pro-trans-ideology/

Ha, good article!

Incidentally I only realised relatively recently that the BMA is a union not a regulator ...

anyolddinosaur · 25/06/2025 16:31

PrettyDamnCosmic · 25/06/2025 15:26

You have to despair of journalists when they make such howlers as this-

Insiders claimed that “ideologues” have infiltrated the medical regulator and “silenced” doctors who backed last year’s report by Baroness Cass into the care of children who think they are transgender.

The GMC is the medical regulator. The BMA is the trade union.

"ideologues" have both infiltrated the medical regulator and silenced .....

Both statements are, IMO, correct but they havent referenced the medical regulator anywhere else in the article.

The journalist just didnt understand that they were being told there is a wider problem than the union.

Merrymouse · 25/06/2025 18:15

“This is an extremely complex report to undertake and whilst we gave an indicative time with an internal timetable by which it was hoped an early update could be given to Council, we want to be as sure as we can be that data collection and analysis processes are as rigorous and robust as possible; this requires time, rather than be rushed.”

Why is it complex?

Surely they can only criticise the methodology of the report? There is no new data to collect.