Page 25 | Horrifying Republican response to Bishop's sermon

Toseland · 28/01/2025 20:14

...she is surely entitled to ask the most powerful person in the country to have compassion and mercy. After all, Trump claims to be a Christian.
I think Trump is showing compassion and mercy! He's freeing children from a lifetime of medication and unnecessary surgeries.

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 01:07

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 27/01/2025 23:30

Another option is to regularise them. Slap them all with a small token fine for coming illegally, background check them, deport those who have criminal records (whether in their own country or otherwise), and give the rest work permits.

And then mandate that employers check eligibility to work.

Their cheap exploited labour

It's not in any way progressive to support a status quo in which people are invisible to the State, cannot unionise, cannot go to the police if they are victims of a crime, etc because they are here illegally and fear being deported. And it's certainly not progressive to use "but the economy" as an excuse for this.

I thought the Left were supposed to oppose capitalist greed, not facilitate it.

Edited

Show quote history

I think there have been attempts to regularize people in the past., and maybe in some cases it has happened?

The worry as I understand it is that if it becomes a thing that's done regularly, it encourages more illegal migration and entry into the workplaces.

Most countries don't accept anyone who wants to be an economic migrants, they want some ability to evaluate them, do some checks, and especially, to make sure their skills fit with what is required.

I can imagine it might even be tricky if they used a sort of grandfather clause that people who had been in the US before a certain date could apply to be regularized without going back to their country of origin - you'd need people to prove how long they'd been there.

And frankly, I think the open borders people would still call that racist somehow.

LittleMyLittle · 29/01/2025 01:26

Most countries don't accept anyone who wants to be an economic migrants, they want some ability to evaluate them, do some checks, and especially, to make sure their skills fit with what is required.

This is a bit of a tangent but it's quite interesting going to a country with strict immigration rules like Australia or New Zealand and hearing people openly sharing this opinion. People also freely complain when they feel too many new people (regardless of skillset or country of origin) are arriving in too short a space of time - older generations remember a time when they had more land between themselves and their neighbours and lament the fact the growing population forces them into closer proximity.

I find myself surprised by the huge variety in cultural attitudes on this front and how opinions and policies that are seen as perfectly logical and sensible in one country are seen as fascist and xenophobic in another.

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 01:36

LittleMyLittle · 29/01/2025 01:26

Most countries don't accept anyone who wants to be an economic migrants, they want some ability to evaluate them, do some checks, and especially, to make sure their skills fit with what is required.

This is a bit of a tangent but it's quite interesting going to a country with strict immigration rules like Australia or New Zealand and hearing people openly sharing this opinion. People also freely complain when they feel too many new people (regardless of skillset or country of origin) are arriving in too short a space of time - older generations remember a time when they had more land between themselves and their neighbours and lament the fact the growing population forces them into closer proximity.

I find myself surprised by the huge variety in cultural attitudes on this front and how opinions and policies that are seen as perfectly logical and sensible in one country are seen as fascist and xenophobic in another.

Yes it's interesting. A lot of countries have rules like that. The idea is that the should only be hiring non-citizens if there is a real shortage of qualified people. TBH I find it odd people think this is problematic.

Now, in the country my brother lives in, you can only move there if you have a job in place, and only jobs with a real shortage, like nurses, can hire outsiders. They also almost always have a time limit of how long they can stay in the job (5 years, say,) their spouses if they have them cannot work, and the only way to become a citizen is through marriage.

swimsong · 29/01/2025 02:17

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 01:07

I think there have been attempts to regularize people in the past., and maybe in some cases it has happened?

The worry as I understand it is that if it becomes a thing that's done regularly, it encourages more illegal migration and entry into the workplaces.

Most countries don't accept anyone who wants to be an economic migrants, they want some ability to evaluate them, do some checks, and especially, to make sure their skills fit with what is required.

I can imagine it might even be tricky if they used a sort of grandfather clause that people who had been in the US before a certain date could apply to be regularized without going back to their country of origin - you'd need people to prove how long they'd been there.

And frankly, I think the open borders people would still call that racist somehow.

Show quote history

There are no "open borders people".

OldCrone · 29/01/2025 02:39

swimsong · 29/01/2025 02:17

There are no "open borders people".

Show quote history

Aren't there?

https://politicalresearch.org/2024/10/02/case-open-borders

https://socialism.com/fs-article/the-case-for-open-borders/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/open-borders-for-sustainable-future/

The Case for Open Borders

Reece Jones discusses the book “The Case for Open Borders” with author John Washington, and the idea of open borders and the way the Left and the Right react to the idea.

https://politicalresearch.org/2024/10/02/case-open-borders

LittleMyLittle · 29/01/2025 02:45

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 01:36

Yes it's interesting. A lot of countries have rules like that. The idea is that the should only be hiring non-citizens if there is a real shortage of qualified people. TBH I find it odd people think this is problematic.

Now, in the country my brother lives in, you can only move there if you have a job in place, and only jobs with a real shortage, like nurses, can hire outsiders. They also almost always have a time limit of how long they can stay in the job (5 years, say,) their spouses if they have them cannot work, and the only way to become a citizen is through marriage.

Show quote history

The idea is that the should only be hiring non-citizens if there is a real shortage of qualified people.

I don't fully understand why this is so controversial either. The reverse seems to me to be a very capitalistic, even exploitative position - make the candidate pool as big as possible so you can get the best person for the cheapest possible price. It also ends up harming the countries that already have less developed economies, because they can't afford to retain their young skilled workers and it perpetuates a cycle of poverty or stagnation (yes, many overseas workers send money back home, but that doesn't address the skilled worker shortage).

I think perhaps the issue lies with some people considering relaxed immigration laws to be a moral imperative (stemming from the perception that people from less economically developed countries will necessarily have a lower quality of life) - which doesn't sit well with me, since this feels like a white saviour mentality. But I do think many people believe this, if only subconsciously. Their mental picture of an immigrant isn't usually someone from the US or Switzerland or another wealthy country. And it makes sense for people who do believe this to get angry at those who want tighter border restrictions, because it means you are depriving people of a chance at a better life.

(To be clear, I'm talking about economic migrants - refugees would be a different topic).

Now, in the country my brother lives in, you can only move there if you have a job in place, and only jobs with a real shortage, like nurses, can hire outsiders. They also almost always have a time limit of how long they can stay in the job (5 years, say,) their spouses if they have them cannot work, and the only way to become a citizen is through marriage.

This sounds a bit like the Middle East. I don't know how I feel about those rules - they definitely seem to benefit the country a lot more than the migrant - but I suppose they must have sufficient take-up or else they'd have to relax them.

Zita60 · 29/01/2025 04:35

Toseland · 28/01/2025 20:14

...she is surely entitled to ask the most powerful person in the country to have compassion and mercy. After all, Trump claims to be a Christian.
I think Trump is showing compassion and mercy! He's freeing children from a lifetime of medication and unnecessary surgeries.

I’m not sure that’s because he has compassion and mercy for them, I think it’s more likely to be a political decision, because he and his supporters are opposed to anything woke.

While the result in this case would save children, most of the rest of what he proposes is nasty and would hurt people.

swimsong · 29/01/2025 06:55

OldCrone · 29/01/2025 02:39

Aren't there?

https://politicalresearch.org/2024/10/02/case-open-borders

https://socialism.com/fs-article/the-case-for-open-borders/

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/transformation/open-borders-for-sustainable-future/

Show quote history

Two academics doing thought exercises and a marginal hopeless candidate. There is no one with any power or any chance of attaining any power advocating for open borders. The Democrat Party is constantly being accused of supporting such a policy in electoral misinformation campaigns. In the post I was replying to it was implied that there is a political movement that has to be appeased. There isn't.

illinivich · 29/01/2025 08:29

Only if Asian grooming gangs are ever proved to be 4800% more likely to commit sexual assault than white men, would it become acceptable to ban male immigration from Pakistan

This is bonkers logic.

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 08:38

Now, in the country my brother lives in, you can only move there if you have a job in place, and only jobs with a real shortage, like nurses, can hire outsiders. They also almost always have a time limit of how long they can stay in the job (5 years, say,) their spouses if they have them cannot work, and the only way to become a citizen is through marriage.
This sounds a bit like the Middle East. I don't know how I feel about those rules - they definitely seem to benefit the country a lot more than the migrant - but I suppose they must have sufficient take-up or else they'd have to relax them.

Also Switzerland. Happy to have educated immigrant workers but you can’t buy a house and if you lose your job you have to leave.

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 09:51

I'd say that much of the recent strand of authoritarianism is coming from the progressive left and from the politics of identity, grievance and intersectionality; and from a younger generation that seems very psychologically and emotionally fragile.

Both the (far) left and the (far) right equally capable of authoritarianism eg Stalin vs Hitler. The rise of authoritarian leaders across the globe is frightening when married with surveillance and technology. It is, however, not unsurprising given the constant bad news on almost every front. Unfortunately humans attempt to seek safety in the apparent certainty of authoritarian messaging.

Part of Trump’s appeal is his absolute certainty*. He’s never wavered from that because his narcissist ego thinks he is right all the time. He has the certainty of a toddler who only sees clear boundaries eg good/bad.

Anyhow, in a recent exercise with some 18 year olds, they uniformly thought an online forum comment about using bear spray on someone breaking work rules was threatening and even obscene. Not a single person interpreted it as possibly joking. Made me wonder if constantly living your life through texts and online has reduced nuance and shades in communication exchanges. In turn, this has fed into more entrenched positions about gender. But certainly good intentions about trigger warnings and removing any potential offense seem to be leading to infantilising young adults.

*To be clear, my position is that Trump’s election is a terrible inflection in the world and whilst I despaired over the Democrats inability to see the damage genderism was doing to women and girls I wanted Harris to win for the sake of the world. All we can do now is hang on for the next four years.

Shortshriftandlethal · 29/01/2025 09:54

Zita60 · 29/01/2025 04:35

I’m not sure that’s because he has compassion and mercy for them, I think it’s more likely to be a political decision, because he and his supporters are opposed to anything woke.

While the result in this case would save children, most of the rest of what he proposes is nasty and would hurt people.

Show quote history

Politicians do politics.....what a novel idea.

Shortshriftandlethal · 29/01/2025 09:59

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 09:51

I'd say that much of the recent strand of authoritarianism is coming from the progressive left and from the politics of identity, grievance and intersectionality; and from a younger generation that seems very psychologically and emotionally fragile.

Both the (far) left and the (far) right equally capable of authoritarianism eg Stalin vs Hitler. The rise of authoritarian leaders across the globe is frightening when married with surveillance and technology. It is, however, not unsurprising given the constant bad news on almost every front. Unfortunately humans attempt to seek safety in the apparent certainty of authoritarian messaging.

Part of Trump’s appeal is his absolute certainty*. He’s never wavered from that because his narcissist ego thinks he is right all the time. He has the certainty of a toddler who only sees clear boundaries eg good/bad.

Anyhow, in a recent exercise with some 18 year olds, they uniformly thought an online forum comment about using bear spray on someone breaking work rules was threatening and even obscene. Not a single person interpreted it as possibly joking. Made me wonder if constantly living your life through texts and online has reduced nuance and shades in communication exchanges. In turn, this has fed into more entrenched positions about gender. But certainly good intentions about trigger warnings and removing any potential offense seem to be leading to infantilising young adults.

*To be clear, my position is that Trump’s election is a terrible inflection in the world and whilst I despaired over the Democrats inability to see the damage genderism was doing to women and girls I wanted Harris to win for the sake of the world. All we can do now is hang on for the next four years.

For "the sake of the world?" ( a small violin plays in the background 😢)

Already the Trump effect has initiated a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ( even if it doesn't last); he is talking to both Zelensky and Putin, invited the Chinese leader to Washington.......Kamala had no credibility and no kudos on the international stage.

biscuitandcake · 29/01/2025 10:01

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 08:38

Now, in the country my brother lives in, you can only move there if you have a job in place, and only jobs with a real shortage, like nurses, can hire outsiders. They also almost always have a time limit of how long they can stay in the job (5 years, say,) their spouses if they have them cannot work, and the only way to become a citizen is through marriage.
This sounds a bit like the Middle East. I don't know how I feel about those rules - they definitely seem to benefit the country a lot more than the migrant - but I suppose they must have sufficient take-up or else they'd have to relax them.

Also Switzerland. Happy to have educated immigrant workers but you can’t buy a house and if you lose your job you have to leave.

The middle east (UAE etc) can do that because they are not liberal democracies - despite some relaxing of some rules they are still extremely authoritarian and this doesn't just affect migrants, it affects women's freedoms too. It actually also restricts the freedom of everyone that lives there, but that matters less because oil money can pay for cradle to grave employment etc. Usually absolute monarchies fall when there are bread shortages for example. UK people wouldn't actually accept the sort of rigid control over their own lives that ultimately being a citizen of those places entails (even if it is lightly felt it is always there). And of course, that rigid control is a lot more restrictive if you are female. Expats on temp visas have more freedom in some circumstances but no rights. So while it is good for them to live that way if it makes them happy I would not want to see that system in the UK even if it were achievable. And the rigid/exploitative rules for migrants come out of that system. You couldn't replicate it here.

In terms of takeup - some countries have already started banning their citizens travelling to some of those places following horrendous news stories of abuses. As a result the places workers are recruited from keeps shifting.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 29/01/2025 10:24

illinivich · 29/01/2025 08:29

Only if Asian grooming gangs are ever proved to be 4800% more likely to commit sexual assault than white men, would it become acceptable to ban male immigration from Pakistan

This is bonkers logic.

Read it in context.

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 10:38

LittleMyLittle · 29/01/2025 02:45

The idea is that the should only be hiring non-citizens if there is a real shortage of qualified people.

I don't fully understand why this is so controversial either. The reverse seems to me to be a very capitalistic, even exploitative position - make the candidate pool as big as possible so you can get the best person for the cheapest possible price. It also ends up harming the countries that already have less developed economies, because they can't afford to retain their young skilled workers and it perpetuates a cycle of poverty or stagnation (yes, many overseas workers send money back home, but that doesn't address the skilled worker shortage).

I think perhaps the issue lies with some people considering relaxed immigration laws to be a moral imperative (stemming from the perception that people from less economically developed countries will necessarily have a lower quality of life) - which doesn't sit well with me, since this feels like a white saviour mentality. But I do think many people believe this, if only subconsciously. Their mental picture of an immigrant isn't usually someone from the US or Switzerland or another wealthy country. And it makes sense for people who do believe this to get angry at those who want tighter border restrictions, because it means you are depriving people of a chance at a better life.

(To be clear, I'm talking about economic migrants - refugees would be a different topic).

Now, in the country my brother lives in, you can only move there if you have a job in place, and only jobs with a real shortage, like nurses, can hire outsiders. They also almost always have a time limit of how long they can stay in the job (5 years, say,) their spouses if they have them cannot work, and the only way to become a citizen is through marriage.

This sounds a bit like the Middle East. I don't know how I feel about those rules - they definitely seem to benefit the country a lot more than the migrant - but I suppose they must have sufficient take-up or else they'd have to relax them.

Show quote history

In this case, not the Middle East, they have a very limited infrastructure capacity which can't really be increased, and limited land base. And a small population. They want as much as possible full employment. (They also severely restrict outside ownership of businesses.)

The thing is, to get someone to come for 5 years under those conditions, you have to make a pretty good offer, and the jobs they do offer pay well. People come without any expectation they will stay permanently, so they know what they are getting into.

There's a big contrast to me right now with the recent issues we've had in Canada. Because of a change in federal regulations there came to be an expectation that anyone who came on a student visa would be allowed to stay if they found a job. There were quite a few articles in the CBC basically saying that not allowing everyone who came on a student visa to stay and work was racist.

ILikeDungs · 29/01/2025 10:40

JessaWoo Personally, I think Budde's message is courageous and beautiful, and clearly deeply Christian at its core.

Or deeply un Christian, depending:

"Don’t get me wrong. I believe there’s a great deal that all Christians and all people of goodwill can agree with in Bishop Budde’s sermon. I’m not remotely implying she had dubious motives. In many ways I admire her. But once you’ve been up close with a cult, and walked with a cult survivor, you learn to recognise thought-terminating clichés – even when the speaker is unaware they are using them. And you feel a shiver down the spine whenever you hear the weaponised language of kindness."

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/weaponised-kindness-the-language-of-the-cult

Weaponised Kindness & the Language of the Cult

For the first decade of the 2000s I was a vicar in suburban southwest London. Part of my inheritance from the previous regime was a church with close links to a cult.It was a very British kind of cult, with an emphasis on high culture, old-fashioned va...

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/weaponised-kindness-the-language-of-the-cult

SinnerBoy · 29/01/2025 10:47

I can't believe that anyone is actually naive enough to think that Trump ordered the ceasefire in Gaza. There were numerous countries involved for months, one single Trump staffer attended some of the meetings, over the course of a few weeks.

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 10:52

ILikeDungs · 29/01/2025 10:40

JessaWoo Personally, I think Budde's message is courageous and beautiful, and clearly deeply Christian at its core.

Or deeply un Christian, depending:

"Don’t get me wrong. I believe there’s a great deal that all Christians and all people of goodwill can agree with in Bishop Budde’s sermon. I’m not remotely implying she had dubious motives. In many ways I admire her. But once you’ve been up close with a cult, and walked with a cult survivor, you learn to recognise thought-terminating clichés – even when the speaker is unaware they are using them. And you feel a shiver down the spine whenever you hear the weaponised language of kindness."

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/weaponised-kindness-the-language-of-the-cult

I think this describes very accurately why many people found the sermon disturbing.

In fact, her sincerity was part of what made it disturbing.

So often now what is defined as "being kind" seems to be something else entirely. Not just that there is nuance - to me I increasingly feel it means the opposite of being kind, it means surrendering to a kind of selfishness.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/01/2025 10:53

ILikeDungs · 29/01/2025 10:40

JessaWoo Personally, I think Budde's message is courageous and beautiful, and clearly deeply Christian at its core.

Or deeply un Christian, depending:

"Don’t get me wrong. I believe there’s a great deal that all Christians and all people of goodwill can agree with in Bishop Budde’s sermon. I’m not remotely implying she had dubious motives. In many ways I admire her. But once you’ve been up close with a cult, and walked with a cult survivor, you learn to recognise thought-terminating clichés – even when the speaker is unaware they are using them. And you feel a shiver down the spine whenever you hear the weaponised language of kindness."

https://www.flaneurnotes.com/post/weaponised-kindness-the-language-of-the-cult

Glad to see this article posted on this thread. The deceitful use of language to conceal the reality of the terrible harm that's happening to children caught up in this ideology is a major issue.

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 11:49

Shortshriftandlethal · 29/01/2025 09:59

For "the sake of the world?" ( a small violin plays in the background 😢)

Already the Trump effect has initiated a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ( even if it doesn't last); he is talking to both Zelensky and Putin, invited the Chinese leader to Washington.......Kamala had no credibility and no kudos on the international stage.

Show quote history

Harris had little to commend her other than she wasn’t Biden and I’m angry that Biden did not build a successor into his time at the WH. However, she would still have an effective and experienced team around her. That is arguably more important than anything else. Do you think Trump is some international or policy expert? Like Johnson, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t do details. He’s repeating what those closest to him say.

Do you think it’s right or good that Trump has pulled out of the Paris Climate accord? And approve of him withdrawing the US from WHO? In the past he refused to nominate judges for WTO thus bringing it to halt. He’s threatened to withdraw from NATO. He’s withheld funds for the UN. These multilateral institutions, for better or worse, have been key instruments for global peace since WWII. Trump being an isolationist is not good for the world. The US has carried out terrible covert operations but largely we have counted on the US to use its economic and military might to maintain global security.

The Trump effect? I beg to differ. He had nothing to do with the ceasefire. Or, if he had any role it was because Netanyahu agreed to it knowing that he had Trump as an absolute supporter. Re the controversial move of the US Embassy to Jerusalem in his last presidency. Now we hear him musing about Palestinians leaving Gaza to go to Jordan and Egypt. This is the talk of a sophisticated peacemaking politician?

He’s long been in thrall to Putin and Russian money. Zelenskyy is a true politician and will be doing his damnest to keep Trump onside but it doesn’t look good. Does Ukraine count it as a win if Russia stops bombing them but gets to keep the whole of the eastern Ukraine? With time for the Kremlin to build up Russian arsenal?

At this moment in time I am very afraid of a Trump presidency. Possibly the right people will say the right things. We can only hope.

SinnerBoy · 29/01/2025 12:59

Excellent analysis, DrBlackbird

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 18:09

SinnerBoy · 29/01/2025 12:59

Excellent analysis, DrBlackbird

I share in celebrating how his administration has taken steps to stop the harm done to young people and women with respect to the protection of single sex spaces. However, I fear he will be the larger evil. Time will tell.

TempestTost · 29/01/2025 18:25

DrBlackbird · 29/01/2025 11:49

Harris had little to commend her other than she wasn’t Biden and I’m angry that Biden did not build a successor into his time at the WH. However, she would still have an effective and experienced team around her. That is arguably more important than anything else. Do you think Trump is some international or policy expert? Like Johnson, I’m pretty sure he doesn’t do details. He’s repeating what those closest to him say.

Do you think it’s right or good that Trump has pulled out of the Paris Climate accord? And approve of him withdrawing the US from WHO? In the past he refused to nominate judges for WTO thus bringing it to halt. He’s threatened to withdraw from NATO. He’s withheld funds for the UN. These multilateral institutions, for better or worse, have been key instruments for global peace since WWII. Trump being an isolationist is not good for the world. The US has carried out terrible covert operations but largely we have counted on the US to use its economic and military might to maintain global security.

The Trump effect? I beg to differ. He had nothing to do with the ceasefire. Or, if he had any role it was because Netanyahu agreed to it knowing that he had Trump as an absolute supporter. Re the controversial move of the US Embassy to Jerusalem in his last presidency. Now we hear him musing about Palestinians leaving Gaza to go to Jordan and Egypt. This is the talk of a sophisticated peacemaking politician?

He’s long been in thrall to Putin and Russian money. Zelenskyy is a true politician and will be doing his damnest to keep Trump onside but it doesn’t look good. Does Ukraine count it as a win if Russia stops bombing them but gets to keep the whole of the eastern Ukraine? With time for the Kremlin to build up Russian arsenal?

At this moment in time I am very afraid of a Trump presidency. Possibly the right people will say the right things. We can only hope.

Show quote history

I think a lot of European countries will be very happy if the Americans end up creating a settlement of some kind between Russia and the Ukraine. And it's because that will mean they no longer have to look like bad guys when they stop supporting Ukraine's military action - and that's going to happen sooner or later.

As for international bodies, I've become incredibly cynical. I don't think the ParisAccord is accomplishing much for the environment. The WHO has shown it's colours on the gender question, it seems to now be an organization mainly interested in pushing their values on nations. Their COVID response was horrific and scary, politically motivated and unscientific And their push for more more power to enforce rules during a pandemic is seriously problematic.