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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The sheer, breathtaking hypocrisy of the Guardian

104 replies

RoyalCorgi · 17/01/2025 09:41

The Guardian's chief sportswriter, Jonathan Liew, is supporting a boycott of the Afghan cricket team: "We are warned not to punish the richly gifted men’s team for the sins of their government, as if the dignity and humanity of 20 million Afghan women were simply acceptable collateral damage against the wider backdrop of Rashid Khan’s availability for the next T20 World Cup."

Just in case you were wondering, yes, this is the same man who thinks having men play in women's sport is just great, and that women who don't like it are all evil right-wingers and, in his own words, "giving some of society’s most marginalised groups a chance to express their talent doesn’t harm anyone. Because trans women are women. And sport, I’m afraid, is only sport."

They really are trolling us now.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/jan/07/afghanistan-women-cricket-icc-taliban

Dignity and humanity of Afghan women must be worth more than game of cricket | Jonathan Liew

The Taliban uses the success of its men’s team as propaganda – cricket’s powerbrokers should pursue a collective boycott

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2025/jan/07/afghanistan-women-cricket-icc-taliban

OP posts:
duc748 · 19/01/2025 18:04

But I can see why they might feel very vulnerable in male spaces, particularly prisons.

Tbf, though, it's not really very taxing to stay out of prisons, is it? Most of us manage that in a lifetime quite comfortably. If you think you'll be vulnerable in prison, avoid a life of crime.

HarpyOfACertainAge · 19/01/2025 18:30

Regarding prisons, quite a large proportion of men in prison are vulnerable. You only need to look at the stats for evidence of this - poor mental health, traumatic childhoods, self-harming etc. Surely the focus should be on reforming men's prisons rather than on making women's prisons less safe?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/01/2025 18:52

BishyBarnyBee · 19/01/2025 16:47

I'm not a gender idealogue and wasn't saying I in any way agreed with Liew's views. I was just suggesting it's not necessarily illogical or hypocritical for him to support women in Afghanistan and still support transwomen in sport.

The issue of Afghanistan is 100% clear cut to just about everybody but Taliban supporters. The issue of transwomen in sport is 100% clear cut to you, but not to everyone.

If you know transpeople personally and believe they are oppressed in society, many of the issues are less clear cut than they seem if you believe transwomen are just men and should always be treated as such.

Which other oppressed groups of men should be allowed to compete in women's sports?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/01/2025 18:53

BishyBarnyBee · 19/01/2025 17:31

There's probably not much point in me engaging here, but I will try.

I don't believe everyone who identifies as a transwoman should be in women only prisons and hospitals wards. But I can see why they might feel very vulnerable in male spaces, particularly prisons. That's not women's fault or responsibility, it's about the impact of toxic masculinity. But to me, it is part of why some transwomen are desperate to be treated as women.

The transwomen and transmen I know all seem pretty vulnerable to me. The quite legitimate campaign against self-ID has definitely emboldened transphobia and I've seen an increase in people thinking it's ok to joke at their expense. So I assumed that other people who knew trans identified people personally might feel more understanding of their viewpoint. Which is not the same as agreeing with it.

Are you aware of the proportion of trans women in prison who have been convicted of violent sexual crimes against women?

maltravers · 19/01/2025 19:07

@BishyBarnyBee , I imagine gay men could be vulnerable in a male prison too. A different vulnerable group could be men with certain convictions (eg paedophiles, rapists). Do we have to let them all into women’s spaces to protect them from men, in your opinion? Why is that fair on women?
I think women are now less tolerant to trans demands because we’re fed up of being stepped all over and rebuked whenever we try to raise women’s needs.

SinnerBoy · 19/01/2025 19:48

FlirtsWithRhinos

The brand of trans activism that has been dominant for the last few decades, probably because its simplistic "just another difference" message can be easily slipped into narratives we already accept around race, sexuality and (ironically) sex, has been very successful in creating a false narrative that the only way to support these men is to pretend they are women and let them utilise the existing protections of women, rather than doing something reasonable like looking at who they actually are, what they actually need and putting something new in place designed around that.

How very well put!

SiobhanSharpe · 19/01/2025 19:52

When I first read Liew's piece quoted above I just thought - ignorant prat.
Now I think hypocritical, ignorant prat.

user1471453601 · 19/01/2025 20:01

You think that there is an equivalence between the plight of Afghan women (not speaking in public always being covered and the rest) and a handful of men being allowed to compete against women? Really?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/01/2025 20:42

user1471453601 · 19/01/2025 20:01

You think that there is an equivalence between the plight of Afghan women (not speaking in public always being covered and the rest) and a handful of men being allowed to compete against women? Really?

Equivalent? No. But they are both points on the same scale of misogyny. They both at heart mean seeing women (female people) as less important than men (male people) and therefore as people whose service men have the right to utilise whether the women in question agree or not.

It is entirely reasonable to say "I'm putting my effort into fighting the injustice in Afghanistan not the injustice in women's sports because the forner affects more women and causes greater damage". I would respect that.

I don't think it's reasonable or logical to say "I am very much against the things being done to women in Afghanistan but very much for women shutting up and smiling about lesser injustices". You either think women deserve fair treatment as complete humans in their own right, or not.

Runor · 19/01/2025 20:49

user1471453601 · 19/01/2025 20:01

You think that there is an equivalence between the plight of Afghan women (not speaking in public always being covered and the rest) and a handful of men being allowed to compete against women? Really?

No, nobody thinks that 🙄

Clearly women having been effectively kicked out of some competitive cycle races in the US is nothing like as bad as what is happening to women in Afghanistan - but that is quite a low bar for protecting women’s rights….

CautiousLurker01 · 19/01/2025 20:49

BishyBarnyBee · 19/01/2025 17:31

There's probably not much point in me engaging here, but I will try.

I don't believe everyone who identifies as a transwoman should be in women only prisons and hospitals wards. But I can see why they might feel very vulnerable in male spaces, particularly prisons. That's not women's fault or responsibility, it's about the impact of toxic masculinity. But to me, it is part of why some transwomen are desperate to be treated as women.

The transwomen and transmen I know all seem pretty vulnerable to me. The quite legitimate campaign against self-ID has definitely emboldened transphobia and I've seen an increase in people thinking it's ok to joke at their expense. So I assumed that other people who knew trans identified people personally might feel more understanding of their viewpoint. Which is not the same as agreeing with it.

I think I understand where you are coming from. And empathising with vulnerable people is at the heart of many of our positions on this issue.

I’m the parent of a young woman who identified as male for more than 6 years. I spent days at her bedside in hospital after suicide attempts, begged and pleaded with social services, CAMHS and the ACMHT when she aged out, my MP and even the CEO of the local NHS trust, for support. However, I think there is a line between understanding the devastating impact of gender dysphoria on a vulnerable [largely, but not solely female, autistic] population - demographic that makes up only a very, very tiny portion of the ‘trans’ community because it has become dominated by AGP and other fetishists - and advocating for unquestioning trans inclusion and acceptance. Especially within safe spaces for women, prisons and clinical settings. In those spaces we should no more advocate ‘understanding’ for AGP trans persons than we would for pedophiles - most of who are also vulnerable, damaged, mentally fragile and often victims/survivors of pedophilia in their youths.

Mine, and I think others’ perspective, is shaped by the overriding need to put the wellbeing and safety of those who cannot advocate for themselves - children, autistics, confused LBG, and/or mentally ill and fragile teens of both genders - at the top of our hierarchy of needs. I can understand that gender confused, adult males also have needs, but it is difficult outside a clinical setting to distinguish between those that I have met who have a lifelong battle with their sexual identity and reconciling the often devastating childhood trauma that underpins their agony, with the AGP/sexual fetishists that take delight in postioning themselves in our sports and changing rooms. The underlying tenets of safeguarding is that we simply cannot know which adult males presenting as female fall in each category. Am happy to support, empathise and care for these people in a trans exclusive space where vulnerable young people are not put at risk, but where needs and compassion compete, I have to put the safety of those people above the ‘viewpoint’ of these men. It doesn’t mean I do not care, it simply means that I care a hell of a lot more for the young women and children that are negatively impacted by this.

it’s a difficult line to navigate. I’d like to say a fine line, but the more I grow to understand my child’s trauma, the more I see the horror of seeing peers of her age having their breasts removed and chemically damaging their bodies, on the NHS no less and despite having been inpatients at youth psychiatric hospitals, the more I feel hardened to the male demographic of the trans community. I want to be a caring compassionate person with a bottomless well of empathy, but I am not that person. My well is running dry. My passion and energy has to be focused on young, vulnerable people. And the fact that young women like my DD are seeing the abject abuse and oppression of women and girls in Afghanistan, making inferences about what this means to be a woman when the west is being horrifyingly silent, just calcifies my feelings towards trans identifying males even further.

maltravers · 19/01/2025 21:12

user1471453601 · 19/01/2025 20:01

You think that there is an equivalence between the plight of Afghan women (not speaking in public always being covered and the rest) and a handful of men being allowed to compete against women? Really?

Whataboutery - women are never allowed to push for fair treatment because “what about x” which is always more important. Funnily enough I don’t see gay and trans people and people of colour told this in relation to the discrimination they suffer. Now why is that..? Why is their struggle heroic and ours not? Back of the line for you wims!

Justwrong68 · 19/01/2025 21:28

What a c£&@t

newrubylane · 19/01/2025 22:08

FlirtsWithRhinos · 17/01/2025 16:10

Compartmentalised thinking.

When he thinks about trans issues, trans is marginalised and "cis" is powerful. So getting more trans and therefore fewer cis opportunities is a landable improvement on the current status quo.

When he thinks about sexism and misogyny, female is marginalised and male is powerful. So getting more female and therefore fewer male opportunities is a landable improvement on the current status quo.

When he's thinking about trans issues he is not thinking about sexism so he puts people into the trans and cis boxes. He sees that more trans people get opportunities - yay! He does not even notice that the "cis" people who lose out by this will be disproportionately female and the trans people who gain will be disproportionately male.

It's not even as meaningful as misogyny, it's just that unless he happens to be looking directly at women and girls, he simply forgets we exist, and therefore doesn't even get as far considering whether we have different challenges and opportunities to men and so that the practical application of trans (ie cross-sex) rights has different impacts on us than it does on men.

Edited

This is a really neat summary @FFlirtsWithRhinos thanks!

tobee · 19/01/2025 22:31

lonelywater · 17/01/2025 15:22

am amazed the graun is still going-who the hell buys it? anyone who counts them selves as centre left departed long ago, right wingers have never touched it so who does that leave? Assorted nutters and headbangers, which you might suppose would not be enough to carry it, but twitter shows just how many batshit mentalists are out there.

Yes well they're getting rid of The Observer - actually paying loss making Tortoise Media so James Harding can have it as his personal plaything in a very murky deal. The Observer which is pretty much the only British newspaper to report on both sides of the TRA / GC debate.

JandamiHash · 19/01/2025 22:32

SolitaryWeasel · 17/01/2025 09:48

Perhaps someone could ask Jonathan Liew why he thinks Afghan women don't simply identify as men to resolve their horrendous situation.

Simon Cowell Wow GIF by America's Got Talent

THIS

tobee · 19/01/2025 22:34

HarpyOfACertainAge · 19/01/2025 18:30

Regarding prisons, quite a large proportion of men in prison are vulnerable. You only need to look at the stats for evidence of this - poor mental health, traumatic childhoods, self-harming etc. Surely the focus should be on reforming men's prisons rather than on making women's prisons less safe?

Indeed

BiggerBoat1 · 19/01/2025 22:42

BishyBarnyBee · 17/01/2025 15:01

Do you think women in the UK are as oppressed by the presence of transwomen in sport as women in Afghanistan are by the presence of the Taliban?

Exactly this.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/01/2025 22:50

BiggerBoat1 · 19/01/2025 22:42

Exactly this.

Since it will be quite tedious to other readers for me to repeat a post, please see my reply of 20:42, about 10 posts before yours.

ellenback21 · 19/01/2025 22:52

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/01/2025 22:50

Since it will be quite tedious to other readers for me to repeat a post, please see my reply of 20:42, about 10 posts before yours.

I was just going to repeat your post - but I agree, let Boat do the research!

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 19/01/2025 23:07

I think probably the vast majority of women in Afghanistan DO identify as men given in Afghanistan at this point man = having human rights. I'm sure they believe they're deserving of human rights ergo they must be a man.

And I'm sure if their oppression was based on gender identity that could be self identified into, then there would be no women at all in Afghanistan.

Yet the Taliban somehow keep oppressing half the population. Almost as if there is some other factor by which they are oppressed.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/01/2025 23:13

CautiousLurker01 · 19/01/2025 20:49

I think I understand where you are coming from. And empathising with vulnerable people is at the heart of many of our positions on this issue.

I’m the parent of a young woman who identified as male for more than 6 years. I spent days at her bedside in hospital after suicide attempts, begged and pleaded with social services, CAMHS and the ACMHT when she aged out, my MP and even the CEO of the local NHS trust, for support. However, I think there is a line between understanding the devastating impact of gender dysphoria on a vulnerable [largely, but not solely female, autistic] population - demographic that makes up only a very, very tiny portion of the ‘trans’ community because it has become dominated by AGP and other fetishists - and advocating for unquestioning trans inclusion and acceptance. Especially within safe spaces for women, prisons and clinical settings. In those spaces we should no more advocate ‘understanding’ for AGP trans persons than we would for pedophiles - most of who are also vulnerable, damaged, mentally fragile and often victims/survivors of pedophilia in their youths.

Mine, and I think others’ perspective, is shaped by the overriding need to put the wellbeing and safety of those who cannot advocate for themselves - children, autistics, confused LBG, and/or mentally ill and fragile teens of both genders - at the top of our hierarchy of needs. I can understand that gender confused, adult males also have needs, but it is difficult outside a clinical setting to distinguish between those that I have met who have a lifelong battle with their sexual identity and reconciling the often devastating childhood trauma that underpins their agony, with the AGP/sexual fetishists that take delight in postioning themselves in our sports and changing rooms. The underlying tenets of safeguarding is that we simply cannot know which adult males presenting as female fall in each category. Am happy to support, empathise and care for these people in a trans exclusive space where vulnerable young people are not put at risk, but where needs and compassion compete, I have to put the safety of those people above the ‘viewpoint’ of these men. It doesn’t mean I do not care, it simply means that I care a hell of a lot more for the young women and children that are negatively impacted by this.

it’s a difficult line to navigate. I’d like to say a fine line, but the more I grow to understand my child’s trauma, the more I see the horror of seeing peers of her age having their breasts removed and chemically damaging their bodies, on the NHS no less and despite having been inpatients at youth psychiatric hospitals, the more I feel hardened to the male demographic of the trans community. I want to be a caring compassionate person with a bottomless well of empathy, but I am not that person. My well is running dry. My passion and energy has to be focused on young, vulnerable people. And the fact that young women like my DD are seeing the abject abuse and oppression of women and girls in Afghanistan, making inferences about what this means to be a woman when the west is being horrifyingly silent, just calcifies my feelings towards trans identifying males even further.

Thank you Cautious for this powerful post. What has happened to your daughter and her peers has been unforgivable. Flowers

BiggerBoat1 · 20/01/2025 07:06

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/01/2025 22:50

Since it will be quite tedious to other readers for me to repeat a post, please see my reply of 20:42, about 10 posts before yours.

Thank you, but I had already read your tedious reply.

Toseland · 20/01/2025 07:20

TwigletsAndRadishes · 17/01/2025 17:20

I know what happened in Cologne in 2015 or course, but what did the Guardian say about it that was the beginning of the end for you?

They ignored the story for a full 7 days then reported it with a quote from the Mayor who said the women had bought it on themselves if I remember rightly.

BishyBarnyBee · 20/01/2025 08:09

@CautiousLurker01, thanks for taking the time to write your long and thoughtful post. You make strong points and there is a lot to think about there.

I wasn't supporting Liew's views, just saying I didn't think he - or the Guardian - was necessarily hypocritical. But obviously that's not the view of most posters on the thread and it was probably foolish to comment in the first place.