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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Complete Mess of Pronouns in Article About Artist Zanele Muholi

18 replies

BeeSeeDee · 16/01/2025 19:10

I booked tickets to the Zanele Muholi exhibition at Tate Modern. When looking up more information on the artist I came across this complete shitstorm of an article. It uses 4 different types of pronoun, after starting off by saying that Zaneli uses pronouns iel and ellui. I really don't know what to make of it. The pronouns change from one paragraph to the next. What on earth is going on?

www.gralon.com/articles/photo-and-video/photo-and-video/article-photography---5-things-to-know-about-zanele-muholi-13251.html

OP posts:
SidekickSally · 16/01/2025 19:13

It’s almost so bad it’s deliberate?

CamelsForChristmas · 16/01/2025 19:17

I wonder deliberate too. Or else just a searingly accurate example of how batshit this all can be.

WhereAreWeNow · 16/01/2025 19:18

What's odd (among so many things) is it starts by saying the artist uses iel and ellui but then proceeds to never use those words again and instead uses he, him, himself, she, her, herself.

Is that a French website? I'm. Wondering if it's particularly bad because it's been translated by Google or something.

WhereAreWeNow · 16/01/2025 19:19

Tbh, it really puts me off going to see the exhibition!

Bergamotte · 16/01/2025 19:21

I know there are people who ask to be referred to by a mixture of pronouns, but this doesn't appear to be the case here. According to the article: "The artist, who does not define herself as female or male, wishes to be presented.e by the use of the neutral pronouns iel and ellui."

The article refers to the artist as "he", "she" and "it", but never actually uses "iel" or "ellui."
Either the author is confused or they're deliberately misgendering!

GCAcademic · 16/01/2025 19:25

I think it’s a translation issue. That website seems to be French with the articles then translated into different languages. As far as I know, Zanele Muholi uses they/them pronouns.

archery2 · 16/01/2025 19:26

I think it's just a cock-up with the translation from the French. 'iel' should be "il" as in French for he. 'ellui' should be 'lui' as in French for 'him'. That's the best way I could make sense of it anyway.

Bergamotte · 16/01/2025 19:27

WhereAreWeNow · 16/01/2025 19:18

What's odd (among so many things) is it starts by saying the artist uses iel and ellui but then proceeds to never use those words again and instead uses he, him, himself, she, her, herself.

Is that a French website? I'm. Wondering if it's particularly bad because it's been translated by Google or something.

Actually, I think this - machine translation - is more likely. At the bottom of the article there's the option to read it in French, Spanish, Italian or German.

And the pronouns could well be referencing il/elle in French.

Bergamotte · 16/01/2025 19:33

The French version of the article does give the special pronouns: "L'artiste, qui ne se définit pas en tant que femme ou homme, souhaite être présenté.e par l'emploi des pronoms neutres iel et ellui."
I imagine something like Google Translate isn't able to give a translation for them as they aren't widely enough used.

Chersfrozenface · 16/01/2025 19:34

archery2 · 16/01/2025 19:26

I think it's just a cock-up with the translation from the French. 'iel' should be "il" as in French for he. 'ellui' should be 'lui' as in French for 'him'. That's the best way I could make sense of it anyway.

'Iel' and 'ellui' are one set of "gender neutral" pronouns in French.

Accepted by the Robert dictionary but mot by the Académie Francaise.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 16/01/2025 19:35

Bergamotte · 16/01/2025 19:27

Actually, I think this - machine translation - is more likely. At the bottom of the article there's the option to read it in French, Spanish, Italian or German.

And the pronouns could well be referencing il/elle in French.

That's how I read it, and I think the neopronouns are quite nicely formed. Let's see more proper new words for the new concept of personality-based language instead of stealing and uselessifying the existing language of sex.

BeeSeeDee · 16/01/2025 20:57

Ah, a machine translation from the French would make sense. I was really confused about the purpose of all the random.

OP posts:
BeeSeeDee · 16/01/2025 20:57

*random switching.

OP posts:
HaveYouActuallyDoneAnyWashingThisWeekMum · 16/01/2025 21:15

Chersfrozenface · 16/01/2025 19:34

'Iel' and 'ellui' are one set of "gender neutral" pronouns in French.

Accepted by the Robert dictionary but mot by the Académie Francaise.

Ah great, more pronouns!

The Tate in all its forms loves this kind of word saladry.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 16/01/2025 21:52

Those French neopronouns are a quite clever pair of portmanteau words built from he and she. Am trying to think of an equivalent in English and it's hard because he is a part of she already, so it's hard to spot you've combined them. Well done the French - elegant as ever.

archery2 · 22/01/2025 17:42

Chersfrozenface · 16/01/2025 19:34

'Iel' and 'ellui' are one set of "gender neutral" pronouns in French.

Accepted by the Robert dictionary but mot by the Académie Francaise.

Thank you for telling me this, I didn't know that.

myplace · 22/01/2025 17:50

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 16/01/2025 21:52

Those French neopronouns are a quite clever pair of portmanteau words built from he and she. Am trying to think of an equivalent in English and it's hard because he is a part of she already, so it's hard to spot you've combined them. Well done the French - elegant as ever.

S/he S/herm

BellissimoGecko · 22/01/2025 17:55

It reads like it's written by AI or someone for whom English is not their first language...

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