When women falsely accuse men of sexual crimes versus when men falsely accuse men of sex crimes

[biscuitandcake]

The current furore re Tom Robinson/Musk got me thinking about this. It is really rare for women to falsely accuse men of rape (its more likely for children who have actually been abused to name the wrong person but thats a bit different). However, it does happen and when it does, its cited for evermore as a reason not to believe women. Even the idea that women "lie about rape to get revenge on men" is brought up constantly in discussions around sexual violence or individual rape cases as a reason not to believe the women. When women are convicted of falsely accusing men of rape they get prison sentences and a lot of rage from other women who, correctly realise that this undermines all genuine victims. I think if a celebrity falsely accused someone of rape and then said they were "doing it to raise attention of the issue and people should be grateful to them actually" they would be at literal risk of violence from other women. They definately wouldn't be taken at their word about anything ever again.

However, when Elon Musk falsely accuses a man of being a paedophile, not only is no-one saying this shows we shouldn't trust men as a group, it isn't even seen as a reason not to trust him as an individual going forward. When Tommy Robinson used the (very real and horrific) cases of grooming/rape gangs to further his own agenda and then repeatedly lied about a child (with no connection to the gangs) being a rapist, the same people who would be moaning about how "women can ruin men's lives with one false claim" were suddenly riding to his defense and talking about how shocking it is that he was sent to prison at all. Including Elon Musk. Including some posters on mumsnet. Where is the rage at him giving people an incentive to disbelieve real crimes.

Just a rant. But why is a woman lying proof that women do "reputational damage" and a reason to ignore real and horrific things, but a man lying, actually a good thing because it draws attention to those things. I actually think that sometimes when men (not all men) are quick to say women probably lie about rape to get revenge, its projection because its the sort of petty thing they can imagine themselves doing.

e.g. Eleanor Williams: The grooming gang lies that sparked outrage - BBC News

She lied about the grooming gangs (same issue that Musk and Robinson are happily spreading a toxic mix of partial truths and fiction about now). But no-one (that I can see) is campaigning for her release on the basis that "the grooming gangs was a real thing and at least someone was drawing attention to it by making stuff up". Because that would be a stupid thing to do

I don't think the Tommy Robinson case is a true reflection of society.
He's in prison because he's a high profile anti establishment-arianist.

Men get away with rape because our legal system is run by men. We live in patriarchy, here in the UK in 2025. Just be grateful we aren't forced to wear burka and we are permitted to have an education without being burnt to death in public.

The Eleanor Williams case is an obviously unusual one.

But women lie about rape less frequently than people lie about being burgled to claim insurance.

One man set fire to his own home and killed seven of his own children in a botched home insurance scam. It's very unusual.

He is in prison for contempt of court after being successfully sued for libel for falsely saying that a child was a rapist. On being found guilty of libel he then doubled down on his claims and said that the child had attacked people with knives. So he went to prison. He was not sent to prison for being an "anti establishment-arianist" whatever that may be. He went to prison for falsely accusing a child of rape. Those be the facts.

I didn't say it was a "true reflection of society". I said it was a reflection of a certain hypocrisy in some circles - both in how women are believed compared to men, and how we hld some people to higher standards of truth than others.

Women hardly ever lie about rape. My point is, when women do its (wrongly) used as a reason to not believe women as a group, let alone women as individuals. You are right that they are less likely to lie about rape than people are about being burgled. And when people do lie about being burgled its not used as a reason to think all burglary victims might be lieing. But equally, no-one is saying that its OK to falsely accuse someone of burglary to draw attention to the issue of crime - all its doing is wasting police resources.

Government stats on women's representation in the legal system show that there is significant representation though not yet 50-50. I don't think this explains the poor rape prosecution figures. I think the burden of proof is the problem.

The poor rape prosecution figures are partly because the burden of proof is an issue (and thats always going to be a problem). Its also because women's truthfulness over even the teensiest details is called into question even when all the other evidence supports her (misremembered dates will be used by the defence. So will any ambiguity in text messages whatsoever, or if they looked happy 2 weeks after.) Its also that the CPS won't even pursue the case if there is a tiniest sliver of doubt on the woman (see the horrific McGregor rape case. But y'know she might have enjoyed being battered and having a tampon forced up her cervix and just lied after to get out of cheating on her boyfriend. So lets not pursue it)
Its also the really big difference in which women making things up is perceived. Compared to men making things up. The grooming/rape gangs case was awful. but that should make it worse to tell lies about. But instead people (on here!) or sort of saying its OK when Elon Musk etc do it because "at least they are talking about the issue".

I do agree its not an issue with gender parity though - I think the double standards are exercised as much by women as by men. Again, see the presumably women on here saying how we should be glad that Musk is "raising the issue" even if what he is saying isn't truthful. Whereas (rightly) they would never ever say that about a woman doing the same thing I suspect.

The only solution is to believe women, though I don't know how this could be introduced into law.

These comparisons don't really work. Elon Musk used "pedo" as an insult in an online argument with a rival. If taken seriously, it could have damaged the guy's reputation perhaps but no more than that. And in fact, a jury found that it wasn't libellous because it clearly wasn't serious.
Musk certainly wasn't claiming to have first-hand personal certain knowledge.

Falsely accusing someone of rape or sexual assault on the other hand is a personal testimony about criminal activity that no-one else is in a position to know about. If believed, the result would be that an innocent person is imprisoned for several years, with significant other consequences too.

The latter seems very different, and much more serious, to me.

If you prefer, suppose that thee two potential offences were being tried in court. In the first case, Elon Musk testifies that he reckons the guy gives off pedo vibes. This isn't going to sway a jury. That's why it's less reprehensible.

Here's a more comparable example of a man making false accusations:

https://www.cambs.police.uk/news/cambridgeshire/news/2024/april/man-made-false-rape-claims/

I don't know much about the case you are referring too so won't comment on that. However, I do disagree that women who falsify rape claims are dragged through the coals as you have suggested. I knew a man who this happened to: met a girl at a party, had a one night stand, but it turned out she had a boyfriend, so Instead of admitting she had been unfaithful, she accused him of rape. He had to endure a year and a half of his name being dragged through the mud, all over the local paper, lost his job etc. all whilst her identity was protected. He ultimately won the case as there were too many eye witnesses who were able to confirm that it was consensual, given it happened at a busy house party, however the papers never reported that - her identity was still protected and she didn't face any further prosecution. He then ended up completely relocating to try to rebuild his life.
I also personally know of at least 2 other women who have falsified claims, but I won't go into detail.
Perhaps when a celebrity falsifies claims, the media will indeed spin it against all women, which is wrong and completely dismissive of genuine victims, but when it happens day to day, I don't think it's reported on at all so it's difficult to compare.

Tommy Robinson used the (very real and horrific) cases of grooming/rape gangs to further his own agenda and then repeatedly lied about a child (with no connection to the gangs) being a rapist

Do you have a link in relation to this? I’ve read a bit about the TR case and I’ve never seen it reported that he made accusations of rape against this boy. The reports I’ve read say he made accusations that the boy was a bully and had physically attacked other children which lead to the original libel case and then he repeated those claims in a film that he’d made which then lead to the contempt of court conviction. I watched the film and there is no allegation of rape (as far as I can remember).

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/22/tommy-robinson-loses-libel-case-brought-by-syrian-schoolboy

I don't think it's reported on at all

I agree it's difficult to know the actual extent to which things like this happen. An actual conviction based on a lie is unlikely, but then so is a deserved conviction sadly.

Often cases will never get as far as the police, since a woman who has been raped may not want to go through that secondary trauma, and a false accuser may be afraid of the criminal consequences of their accusation. We're making an assumption that a false accuser would want to get someone a criminal record but we don't actually know what their goals would be in this scenario. A false burglary would usually be an insurance scam but a false rape could have numerous motivations behind it.

We just don't know.

Yes, I saw that too. But I had to google search to find it. Actually if you look online it seems men are just as likely to make false accusations as women. But their cases are much less widely publicised/talked. You hear men talk about worrying that women make false accusations but actually their male friends could be just as likely to.

I agree that Elon's Musks accusations are less reprehensible in that they were less believable. And the defence basically is "people don't take Elon Musk seriously." Fine. But then he shouldn't be taken seriously full stop. And I do think that his "intervention" in the grooming scandal is harmful because it risks derailing a really important issue and that is reprehensible. Its not that I think there is a sentencing disparity between men and women for false claims (Musk is different to Eleanor Williams). But that people's attitude to men and women who lie is different. (Men who lie are free speech heroes for "drawing attention to the issue". Women who lie are proof women can't be trusted. Women ruining men's lives is awful. Men ruining men's lives doesn't matter)

I was wrong about the Robinson comments. I know he had accused the boy of "attacking" girls in his school, and I guess in my head connected that to sexual attacks. But that was my mind not what he actually said which was just "attacks".

Amber Heard also didn't accuse anyone of anything in court. She didn't even name her alleged attacker (though it was obvious). She was still tried for libel, still heavily villified, and didn't receive public support from free speech warriors over her right to say what she wanted. And now she is used as an example of how awful women are, sometimes by the same people who think its funny when Musk initiates a pile on against innocent people.

You said it yourself, if it's obvious whom you are libeling, then it's actionable.

Also, free speech stops where libel starts.

Then why oh why is Tommy Robinson "a breath of fresh air" to some people. Or Elon. Rather than people undermining real assault victims by spreading false information? If women like Amber Heard undermine all victims of assault and domestic violence so do lies spread by Musk, Trump, Vance, SYL. Its not different people saying that - its often the same.
I agree free speech stops where libel starts. Which is why SYL is not a political prisoner. And why Musk is not a free speech warrior.

Surely there needs to be evidence though?