Northern Ireland's prosecutors 'will respect the self-declared gender identity of criminal defendants'

[IwantToRetire]

Northern Irish prosecutors will refer to defendants as any gender they want, the PPS has confirmed to the News Letter.

On the surface of it, this opens up the possibility that prosecutors could refer to alleged rapists as women if they so desire.

It also indicates the PPS will accept people as belonging to new "non-binary" genders like "two spirit" and "pangender", and that they would be willing to use the new accompanying pronouns like "ze/zir" instead of "she/her".

Continues at https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/crime/northern-irelands-prosecutors-will-respect-the-self-declared-gender-identity-of-criminal-defendants-4924177

So does being a different gender make a difference? If so it shouldn't

If someone is tried surley it is in the crime not getting let off because you identify as a squirrel

🤦‍♀️🙄Yup, NI Civil Service, Public Sector etc are still far behind what's been happening in terms of redressing gender ideology overreach in GB.

I don't know why, when progress is being made on this issue in GB (especially with the recent Bench Book revision in England & Wales), our NI PPS pop up and state they're going to do this ideological thing that will have an effect on the effectiveness of the criminal justice system.

Pronouns and their use will cause problems for fluidity of presenting oral evidence and oral witness examinations. It's really bound to emotionally and mentally affect the victims having to hear or use counterfactual pronouns. Also, we've seen many times how a trans identity has been successfully used to argue for reduced sentences (or incarceration of males in the female prison estate) by many males who have committed violent and sexual crimes in GB (and USA/Australia/Canada/NZ) so I don't look forward to this happening here in NI where we already have an atrocious record on prosecuting violent and sexual crimes against women and children.

The policies of the NI Department of Justice and the NI Prison Service (and the Police Service of NI) are worrying also in that they are committed to observing counterfactual identities and taking everything on a case-by-case basis with emphasis on the welfare of the accused over any female prisoners they are going to be housed with.

In summation, NI is very similar to how things stood in Scotland before the Isla Bryson scandal happened. Women's rights NGOs here are largely all TWAW because that's the position denoting social status and the position that gets funding.

In summation, NI is very similar to how things stood in Scotland before the Isla Bryson scandal happened. Women's rights NGOs here are largely all TWAW because that's the position denoting social status and the position that gets funding.

Thanks for that over view.

Why are they still preserving with this, when other parts of the UK are opting out of pursuing it? Although I thought Wales was still very committed to this.

My gender is Stuffilovic (https://gender.fandom.com/wiki/Stuffilovic).

I like to be referred to as innocent eg the innocent one over there, did you see that innocent person over there at the scene etc. and I'm very glad any prosecutors will abide by my wishes.

You'd like to think (and I know this hasn't been happening) that before ANY organisation agrees to go down this route - whether that's news organisations, the police, or prosecutors - they would undertake thorough research on how traumatic it might be for any victims to have to refer to the alleged perpetrators by a different pronoun, with a particular regard for victims of sex attacks. Victims and ensuring justice for victims should be at the heart of any criminal prosecution changes... it is the whole reason why they exist! Has any study on the effects of forcing crime victims to use their attacker's preferred pronouns ever been carried out, does anyone know? If not, someone needs to get on to it, fast.

It is another way that males get to legally torture the women they have assaulted/raped/etc. It is disgusting to force a woman who has suffered violence at the hands of a man to have to hear that MALE being referred to as “she” or “her”. Unforgivable.

"Ensuring justice for victims should be at the heart of any criminal prosecution changes... it is the whole reason why they exist!"

This is a bit tangential to the points being raised, but it is relevant - the CPS / PPSNI's role is to deliver justice, which involves the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. The right to a fair trial lies at the heart of procedural decision making- over and above maximising the comfort and limiting the distress proceedings may cause the victim. In recent years, more thought has been given to supporting victims with the ordeal of attending court, but there are limits to what this can entail.

The accused is not 'a perpetrator' until found guilty and should also be afforded dignity, respect and consideration. Attending court is also an ordeal for them also.

Again, we find ourselves in the territory of conflicting interests.

I think the issue at hand is what impact wrong-sex pronouns might have on delivering a fair trial. There are trans people whose characteristics garner sympathy and concern, others who garner ridicule and incredulity and others who trigger repulsion and/or fear. Being trans is likely to impact on a jury, irrespective of which pronouns are used, and I expect different barristers will utilise someone's trans status differently in relation to what the trans person stands accused of

‘I think the issue at hand is what impact wrong-sex pronouns might have on delivering a fair trial. There are trans people whose characteristics garner sympathy and concern, others who garner ridicule and incredulity and others who trigger repulsion and/or fear. Being trans is likely to impact on a jury, irrespective of which pronouns are used, and I expect different barristers will utilise someone's trans status differently in relation to what the trans person stands accused of’

I agree that wrong-sex pronouns are likely to have an effect on the fairness of a trial (e.g. Maria MacLachlan being told off by the judge for referring to her attacker as ‘him’’ and having her compensation reduced accordingly). I also think that, as you argue, the revulsion and fear aspect potentially being triggered makes people overcompensate because they feel guilty about their instinctive reactions. So that overcorrection may work in a perpetrator’s favour during sentencing etc.

And as we’ve seen in previous reported cases, barristers lean heavily on the trans aspect as mitigation for sex crimes - we’ve literally seen perpetrator’s barrister declare that the perpetrator downloaded/watched CSAM because of gender dysphoria and sadness at not growing up as a girl, and judges have taken that argument seriously and seen it as mitigating circumstances during sentencing.

Hopefully the victims/witnesses do not need to do the same.

Crouton19 · Today 14:12

Hopefully the victims/witnesses do not need to do the same.

See the post preceding yours above. Victims absolutely have been forced to use wrong sex pronouns, when giving evidence.

I think that it was Tan Ikram - of the "Equal" Treatment Bench Book noteriety, who didn't jail three trans defendants, who kicked the shit out of a drunk, who said, "Oh, you're blokes." On the grounds that he'd provoked them and should have realised that they'd kick his head in.

I recall reading about a number of women being castigated in court, for trying to refer to their attackers as men / using male pronouns. It's an absolute travesty.

Really, it's compelled speech and an instruction for victims to perjure themselves, by not actually telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Tan Ikram has a very 'interesting' approach to justice - having read some of his previous decisions (and read about some of his social media behaviour) I'm amazed that no-one in authority has had a word with him.

Interesting as in biased and corrupt, with a huge conflict of interest; see his ruling on SJ Baker, ruling that his highly inflammatory incitement to violence against GC women being a joke.

tbh it is utterly shite for the victims. But nobody will care unless some photogenic victims are prosecuted for misgendering their attacker in court and they themselves are on trial.

NI's Justice Minister (PPS civil servants work for this dept) is Naomi Long, member of the Alliance Party - sister party of the LibDems, opposed the puberty blocker ban, also in receipt of large bungs donations from puberty blocker firms. Does that explain anything? There was also a violent man transferred to the women's prison last week for 24 hours, and he'll likely end up serving his sentence, if custodial, in the female jail if Naomi has the final call on it.