Gender reveal parties...

[PokerFriedDips]

I didn't want to hijack the thread of yet another starry-eyed young mum who calls the announcement of the sex of their baby a "gender reveal".

Tbh I think the whole americanised shebang is tacky but that's not what this thread is about.

I'd like to know whether there's a correlation between the tendency of any given set of parents to have a "gender reveal" party for their unborn baby and the tendency of that child to later identify as trans? Does the sexist attitude that emphasises sex as the most important personality-defining trait which is intrinsic to the idea of a gender reveal party, and the corresponding tendency to colour code their children, carry with it a higher likelihood that a child will rebel against being defined in that way? Does the attitude of "whatever, so long as the baby is healthy/let clothes be clothes and let toys be toys attitude provide children with any protection against trans ideological capture?

Could such Sociological Research happen?

I think you're grasping at straws here.

Boys and girls are different, and that's ok.

Nah
People have been interested in whether a baby is a boy or a girl since the dawn of time

You don't have to make it all about the trans

I have done sex reveals. Definitely not a party with a balloon pop or cake smash or anything though. I was pregnant with DD2 in the height of Covid lockdowns and the Zoom quiz. DH and I organised a quiz for our family and the final question was is DD1 going to have a baby brother or sister. DS was us sharing a picture of a babygrow that said little brother. Hardly a tacky American reveal. It was an exciting thing to be able to share about our new baby when we couldn’t exactly talk about their looks or personality.

We are very much there’s no such thing as boys and girls toys and all three have had access to the same range of toys. My girls both have wide interests that cover both stereotypically girl and boy things. DS is only 8mo so we’ll see what he’s interested in in good time.

I think families that focus on gender conformity and pressure their child to like specific things based on their genitalia is likely a contributing factor towards body dysmorphia and therefore feeling they are the opposite sex. I don’t think every couple who do a ‘gender reveal’ fit that though.

I think families that focus on gender conformity and pressure their child to like specific things based on their genitalia is likely a contributing factor towards body dysmorphia and therefore feeling they are the opposite sex.

Do you mean providing baby boys with trucks, and baby girls with dolls, etc?

Well, yes and no.

I think boys who are discouraged from playing with dolls because ‘those are girly toys’ or girls who aren’t allowed to like trucks because ‘they’re for boys’ are being pigeon-holed into stereotypes. If that child doesn’t feel like they fit the stereotype, they could start to feel a disconnect with the body they were born with. “I must really be a girl if I love ballet” “Maybe I’m actually supposed to be a boy because I can’t stand pink unicorns”.

In my opinion, children should be exposed to a wide range of toys from the get go and their specific interests nurtured as they start to appear.

Could such Sociological Research happen?

Given that there's a dearth of reliable scientific research into transgender children, and given there are more pressing topics (e.g. efficacy of different treatments that are already occurring), I doubt it would be a priority.

Plus, it would need to include trans-identifying kids and non-trans-identifying kids and be quite a huge (expensive) study. Also, you'd really need to start it from pregnancy and follow up at various points to avoid recollection biases when parents are trying to remember what they did several years ago, not least for the ones who are now very conscious of their trans-identifying child's narrative around sex stereotypes that they will have repeated to doctors and everyone else over and over, or for the parents who now make a conscious effort to eschew stereotypes.

Furthermore, the question would need to be narrowed significantly to be useful - while a gender reveal party might signify the parents have strong views on adhering to sex stereotypes, there are lots of other reasons that parents might have this kind of party (because all their friends did, just to have a party, for the insta pics, to get gifts, because they're excited to share their baby news, and so on).

I think it might be better to come up with a questionnaire that reveals the parent's beliefs around adherence to sex stereotypes generally as well as parenting questions, and make inferences from that.

I think in many instances, imposing strict adherence to sex stereotypes in childhood often does affect a person's understanding of who they are in the world and can foster an uneasy sense of being at odds with society's expectation of them. I've heard lots of middle-aged transwomen describe how they knew they were a girl when they were told off for playing with "girls'" toys in childhood, for example. But I think the expense of conducting decent quantitative research to establish this link would outweigh the benefits of evidencing something that already seems pretty well-evidenced and accepted by individual accounts from trans people's recollections of their own childhoods.

Also, we would have no control group of children raised in a non-sexist society to compare the subjects to, as children receive messages from multiple sources (friends, school, tv, adverts, etc) in addition to their parents. One can make simple inferences from looking at different countries with different values/lifestyles and seeing if they have the same proportions of trans-identifying children without needing to conduct a study, though.

I think probably the simplest research would be a qualitative study of the available memoirs/interviews of trans adults to look at their explanations as to how they knew they were trans, and see how many rely on sex stereotypes (spoiler alert: most of them).

When I saw the words 'gender reveal parties' in the title, I thought somebody was going to point out that so-called gender reveal parties are actually sex reveal parties.

I've never heard of one where the revelation was 'fluid' or 'trans' or 'a-'.

And I've never heard of one where some party-pooper pointed out that there is no way of knowing, as the baby has not yet been born, so we have to wait until birth so the baby can be 'attributed' a boy label or girl label.

If gender is a set of socially-constructed stereotypes ['if' is doing a lot of work there!] it is worrying that parents-to-be who have 'gender reveal parties' are setting their child up to be subjected to that pink/blue stereotype mullarkey even before the little mite is born😒

The fact that the sex is announced with pink for girl and blue for boy is very stereotypical.

At least a number of the high profile trans-kid families have appeared to operate that way. Pretty much all the trans origin stories I have read have started with 'I knew from a young age I was not like the other boys/girls' followed by a list of stereotypes and how their parents had been disappointed at their non-conformity.

I have also seen a case though where the opposite happened. Home super laid back, let toys be toys, let clothes be clothes. Little boy was a happy gender conforming little boy. Until he hit school, at which point he wanted to wear long blonde plaits and a pinafore, so inevitably all his schoolmates assumed he was a girl until they convinced him he was one too.
We can't bring our kids up in a vacuum and one child isn't strong enough to take on the whole weight of sex stereotypes single-handed. While I'm all for let clothes be clothes, I would have drawn the line at school uniform because as an adult I would have known the confusion this would cause. DS at that age had a pink water bottle and a red coat and got some silly comments just on that, but he wore trousers to school.

Families who keep their kid's sex secret ("theybies") are also prone to having kids with assorted flavours of gender identity. Often NB ones, as they have basically told the kid pick your stereotype, and left to their own devices most kids pick a bit of both. Suspect the parents may nonetheless subconsciously direct the kid towards stereotypes of the opposite sex. Ending up with a pink princess loving girl would be rather /embarrassing/ when you've gone to all that effort to create a stereotype free theybie.

I wouldn't say there was any link, but my experience is the ones who were very much into toys are toys, clothes are clothes are the ones whose children later identified as trans. They were perhaps almost evangelical about it, and celebrating when their son picked the sparkly pink trainers. There seemed to be an almost forcing into liking what is traditionally the opposite sex, and limiting their choices to them.

It therefore should come as no surprise that once they were at school and getting messages the pink sparkly trainers are for girls, they came to the conclusion they were in fact a girl.

Perhaps both sides of the same coin.

If a young boy is going to be praised for choosing sparkly pink trainers, rather than black or blue ones, there's a big incentive to do so.

I think any form of extreme parenting is going to lead to confused children. My kids will be encouraged to choose the toys they want to play with regardless but they’ll still be a boy/girl because of their sex.

As pp said, adult trans origin stories always feature childhoods where sex stereotypes were rigidly enforced, sometimes quite abusively. My opinion is that conservative sex based stereotypes and trans gender identity stereotypes are the two sides of the same coin. Both uphold the patriarchy one way or another.

The trans side appropriates the language of genuine rights movements and has a veneer of novelty which is what dupes some into thinking it progressive. The conservative side doesn't advocate mutilating children's bodies so can obviously seem like common sense but it is also behind the attitude which allows horrific treatment of women throughout history and today in places like Afghanistan. Neither offer true freedom or equality of personhood to women.

I think gender reveal parties are simply one of many symptoms of a gender stereotype obsessed society. And trans identifying children are another.

My personal anecdata on the subject from being a parent and working in schools is that the trans ID kids I've met have almost all been autistic and many were questioning their sexuality. About half had pretty traumatic life shit happening ranging from acrimonious parental divorce to sexual abuse. All the trans ID kids I have known had trusted adults in their life (either school, youth group or in one case parents) that fully bought into gender ideology. They were all girls and those questioning their sexuality went quite rapidly from saying they were lesbian to saying they were pansexual or non binary. I really think what our culture has done to the concept of being a same sex attracted female deserves study.

Of the friends I know who still believe in gender ID they do happen to have very gender conforming children. I wonder if it's an easy thing for them to believe in because they feel safe that their own child won't want to mutilate their body? I'll be watching the teenage years with interest.

I don't think gender reveals have much to do with anything really.
Whoop it's a girl, we buy a load of pink shit because that's all that's available in next/Asda (rather than being a conscious choice) and move on.

If anything, I think the parents experiencing long term 'gender disappointment' (i.e. more enduring than just being a bit sad that you'd have liked one of each) are more likely to influence whether their child identifies as trans through subtle influence and unconscious bias. But maybe that's a stretch.

Theres many, many possible reasons & Influences - MBP/FDIA, ND kids seeking answers, attention seeking behaviours, genuine dysmorphia... The list rambles on.

I personally wouldn't put 'parents had a gender reveal' on that list, but I get your line of thinking.

True, but wouldn't that just make him a boy who likes sparkly pink trainers, not a boy who thinks he's a girl?

This so-called gender reveal (sex reveal in actuality) wasn't available when I had my children. In truth I couldn't have given a flying wotsit whether I had girls or boys so wouldn't have taken (dis)advantage of it anyway. Can anyone explain why the hell it matters?

It appears that in this age of gender i.e.sex equality, it seems to matter more what sex your child is, not less. This is totally counter-intuitive.

I know correlation does not equal causation, but I am deeply suspicious that there is a link - at the best a statistical link and at worst a physical or psychological link - between this obsession with "gender" and the explosion of the trans ideology.

I think the current adults who transition pre-date gender reveals, but did have parents who adopted pink for a girl and blue for a boy and their kids felt like they didn't fit that.

However, the parents I know who have transitioned small children in the last 10years are different, same sexism but different interpretation. I've seen them repeatedly want their child to buck the trend, say pink is yucky if they are a girl, beam with pride if their son wants painted nails but not allow it on their daughter. They are incredibly sexist, in terms of seeing stereotypes as fixed, but see themselves as progressive and their children as interesting and different. Never putting girls and boys in green or yellow, but forcing a choice between pink and blue and only celebrating the non-conforming one. They still tell their DDs that they are wearing "boys clothes," that they are much cooler because they don't like "girls clothes," or giving their boy a load of attention for being Elsa, but not spiderman, for example.

Did this thread get moved to this part of MN?

Interesting thought. But I am not sure. We bought our teen up actively with toys are toys and clothes / interests don’t fit a particular sex. But we never made it a big deal. They didn’t even realise we did it until they were 14/15 and I pointed it out. Then they got it.

I think you have a grain of something that there has been a strong sense of gender stereotyping so that my child as a tween was told they were the opposite sex because they like [insert] interest. But I am doubtful that has more to do with parents than with advertising, media and then peer pressure.

And I really don’t understand these ‘sex reveal’ things. But I figured that was just me.

True, but wouldn't that just make him a boy who likes sparkly pink trainers, not a boy who thinks he's a girl?
In reality, yes.
What the child understands by it, though, depends on the parents and potentially peer group and teachers too.

Theybie-parents are telling the child "they" can choose whether "they're" a boy or a girl, and not giving them any clues how to do so apart from feeling - which for the child is going to be based on their perceptions of how the groups differ, i.e. stereotypes.

But any gender believer parents, along with a let clothes be clothes attitude and the culture clash when a child is hit full in the face with a stereotype enforcing peer group, can also confuse a child.

Combine either of those with the parents' subconscious tendency to encourage the sparkly trainers for boys and the short haircut for girls. I may be guilty of that a bit myself - it's easier to be sure you're not subconsciously /imposing/ stereotypes on your kids when some of the things they do are not in line with the stereotypes. Though also I guess consciously biased against glittery frilly things as being utterly impractical for busy kids, and against having battles with brushing long hair when short hair is easier, so DD probably got more anti-stereotype than DS did.

Then there's the group the OP described where parents are trying to enforce the stereotypes so much that the child feels that if only they were the opposite sex they'd be allowed the toys and clothes they want. And parents may latch onto trans as a solution to their (often homophobic from publicly reported cases) concern about their child's departure from their stereotyped role.

And then there are teenagers where it's much more peer group than anything going on at home.

It's not one thing, there's not one trigger.

thirdfiddle thank you for summing up what I was trying to say, you did it so much better.

My DD was gender non-conforming from a young age and I let her wear what she liked - leggings and hoodies as they were comfortable. Aged 14 she decided she was trans because she didn’t want to wear make-up and didn’t fancy boys. She got an autism diagnosis aged 15. By this point, I had made the connection between trans and autism. Unfortunately she was encouraged by teachers at school and online influences. She has other trans friends who are also autistic. It is rife in autistic teenagers. It’s very hard as a GC parent to fight this and it’s utterly heartbreaking. It really has very little connection with how she was brought up as a child and everything to do with social contagion.

I'm so sorry to hear what has happened with your DD, kinfauns.
I didn't want to wear make-up and didn't fancy boys when I was 14, and I was more fortunate than your DD because that made me a lesbian, not trans.
So I didn't grow up thinking I was in the wrong body, I just grew up knowing I was in the wrong set of stereotypes, and rejected them.

I think the re-emergence of the strict pink/blue thing has to be seen in the context of a backlash against the gains made by women in the 80s and 90s. If you look at old school photos from that time, it's not always easy to tell who are the boys and who are the girls, there's lots of similar haircuts [or lack thereof!], sweatshirts with dinosaurs on them, or those scoopy-necked jumpers with large-collared shirts under them...

Then along came Disney princesses, butterflies, fairies, sparkle on everything, and the sugar and spice thing was reinforced bigtime - toys, clothes, TV programmes, everywhere.

Without that push to restore the stereotypes, the trans juggernaut wouldn't have had traction - 'so you're a girly boy, or a tomboyish girl - so what? children are all different, they can have all sorts of interests and preferences!' - would cause the wheels of the trans juggernaut to spin uselessly.

But I realise that's not much comfort to kinfauns, broken-hearted by what it has done to her DD. Maybe the fact that there is greater push-back against trans ideology will filter through to your daughter - she is getting older and may notice the shift in social attitudes and start to think independently and critically about what she's been told to believe about herself... I can only hope that your paths grow closer again, OP, but it is a difficult time for you for now so
for you
for your daughter

I wasn't particularly aware that there 'was' a re-emergence of the strict pink/blue thing; I don't spend much time in toy-shops, but I guess it explains the views I see on MN. I suppose those Disney princesses have more impact than I realised. I thought the idea of boys' toys and girls' toys had been debunked more or less for good. What I do see nowadays, which was rare when I was a kid, millennia ago, is more girls playing football.

Thank you MarieDeGournay It's just an unfortunate time to be an autistic, non-gender conforming (possibly gay) female teenager. I agree that aggressive marketing of girls and boys clothes and toys has led to this perception of a wide gender divide and the assumption (from a very black and white autistic viewpoint) that "if I don't fit into the girl category, then I must be a boy". It's nonsense of course, and what we need is far wider categories of how boys and girls can present and behave, rather than medicalising those who do not fit into these strict boxes. I grew up in the androgynous 70s surrounded by blokes with long hair and women with hairy armpits. The whole gender ideology really does feel like we have taken a huge step backwards and are relying on tired old stereotypes to describe men and women. It's dismal.

In that context @kinfauns I’m wondering what it means in practice when a man has to “live as a woman” in order to gain a GRC . Do biological women all act / dress as a man living as a woman would live and dress when he’s playing the female role?