You’re Wrong About Why People Change Gender - Dr Az Hakeem interview

[UtopiaPlanitia]

Andrew Gold interviewed Dr Hakeem at the Battle of Ideas and it’s, as usual with Dr Az, a fascinating interview. Thought I’d post it here for anyone who’s interested in watching:

This ^

Feeling uncomfortable with your male sex, or wishing you had a woman's body to fetishise, should absolutely remain as some obscure mental health issue.

There really is a collective madness at large which says we need to accommodate this with laws and women's compliance.

I hadn't really thought in this context before, but your use of the word "accommodate" makes me think, this movement has maybe managed in part because we also now have a lot of emphasis, at least notionally, on accommodating medical needs.

Which would make having it in the medical sphere important, if the claim is these are medical needs that should be accommodated just like having automatic doors or giving a student extra time to complete an exam or an exemption on being called on in class.

It could also be part of the reason sectors like education have fallen in line they way they have - these are also sectors that seem to go really far with accommodation in other cases without any consideration of how it affects others, and in fact say that considering such effects in inappropriate. (For example the larger effect on teaching of having certain students the professors aren't allowed to question in class.)

I've thought for a long time that we won't see the end of this movement until it's been really discredited medically and scientifically, because as long as that remains, there are grounds to take action on that basis, and the requirement to accommodate is part of the mechanism for that.

What I’m not seeing in this is a fetish (paraphilia?) associated with wanting to be dominated (by men) in the way men perceive women are. And, separately, the thrill of dominating women by being in / taking over their spaces - knowingly not ‘passing’ but forcing their presence through current social expectations.

Ultimately, as said above, there are probably 1000s of different permutations of this, as it seems there is with men sexuality in general. And this again the difference and danger of children being swept up into this ideology,

I used to work in higher ed in the UK and I remember when we were learning about the (then) new disability discrimination legislation, the key phrase was "reasonable adjustments".

In other words, it was recognised that budgets are not bottomless and that other people - colleagues, other service users - also have needs and rights which cannot just be waived without discussion.

Maybe in the stampede to look progressive (or to avoid being sued!) this principle has been lost sight of somewhat.

You're right! The time given to girls and ROGD is about 4 minutes at the end of of a nearly hour long interval.

Yes, I don't get the transvestite vs AGP distinction that Dr Az makes. It all seems to be about getting off on humiliation and submission because of misogynistic perceptions of women, whether the arousal is from clothing, other stereotypes of feminity, physiological (having periods and using sanitary protection, lactating etc) or anatomical (having breasts, vagina). Many also have in common the aggression and arousal from deliberately infringing women's spaces and getting away with it or enjoying women's discomfort. So they simultaneously occupy the oppressor and oppressed role - the ultimate, erotic power trip for them.
The men in this category (or categories) are so keen to sweep up the kids, autistic young men and guys with internalised homophobia because they are great cover for them. It also muddies the water further for those of them who have multiple paraphilias (they tend to have more than one) - paedophilia and zoophilia, for example. You can see this in every 'family friendly' Pride event - they have precious little to do with the LGB now.

To be fair, i dont think he'll have had much dealings with girls. I think he is focused on adults and has been working exclusively in the private sector for a while now.

Yes, I don't get the transvestite vs AGP distinction that Dr Az makes.

Neither did i. Eddie izzard was happy seeing himself as a transvestite for years, now looks and behaves like many self confessed AGPs.

On RODG he has not dealt with it as a therapist.

I read his book and i struggled with some of his distinctions with all the sub groups

My take away from what he says is that gender dysphoria is not a condition in of its self. It is as cough, a symptom of something else. That is deep rooted in childhood.

That makes sense to me.

I am, or want to be a caring and empathetic person and so have been on that be kind journey.

I have as a woman strode by and with feminism, whatever that means, on and off, fell out with it many years ago when women denied their own biology, thought we could be or compete with men.

I realise now we are women, womb havers, chest feeders, birthing people, whatever the men’s want to call us now, and the silly women who think that they can be men.

I am an older person now, but that does not make me a fool.

I no longer give a shit about the detail, the analysis of what is the causation of the bonkers situation we find ourselves in.

In a nutshell anything or anybody who tells me that trans is a reality can fuck right off and i don’t care who i piss off.

i agree. I've heard Dr Az say in a few interviews that he prefers to only speak about the groups he has most experience with which seems to have been largely male patients.

Well said.

I can only assume it's important when someone is young enough to be helped; to understand and work though their feelings e.g. an autistic boy who is confused about his emerging libido and is being encouraged to explore that confusion sexually. This could be in an online community such as anime or where the boy uses a female avatar. In both cases the blurring of boundaries between fancying a character and fancying yourself as the character may be difficult, in the context of the mixed messages that children are subject to about what it means to "be" female or male.

Once it's established as a behaviour that is going to escalate, whichever driver it is, it seems less important to make a distinction. Autism or not. At this point...

The men in this category (or categories) are so keen to sweep up the kids, autistic young men and guys with internalised homophobia because they are great cover for them.

If there are any parents of adolesent boys who identify as female reading this thread, this new roundup of info from the excellent website "ROGD Boys" may be of interest:

https://www.rogdboys.org/effects-of-estrogen-on-males

Lots jumped out, particularly this:

The overall mortality risk for medicalized TIMs was 80% higher compared to non-medicalized males in the general population (standard mortality rate [SMR] 1.8, 95% CI 1.6-2.0). (It was also higher than biological females in the general population [SMR 2.8, 95% CI 2.5-3.1].) Some of the major causes of death include cardiovascular disease (21%), cancer (32%), infection-related disease (5%), and suicide (7.5%).

The increased cancer risks were thyroid and testicular cancers. Obviously some will have their testicles removed, but that comes with other health risks because the testicles contain the source of natural hormones that the body needs. If the testicles are still there, presumably they can start providing hormones again if the person stops taking testosterone suppressants.
Suicide rates for medicalised males who identify as female are also alarmingly high. 7.5% (in the excerpt above) compared to a general male population rate of 0.0174%, according to this from the ONS:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2023#:~:text=1.,highest%20rate%20seen%20since%201999.

Re the above, the info from ROGD Boys is relevant whether someone is on a pathway to AGP or not. Obviously not all males who identify as females are AGPs.

On this point, I would echo @TWETMIRF 's question above:

I think it's extremely disingenuous to dismiss the very real experiences of women but you keep doing it. Why is it so hard for you to admit that not every trans person is sincere in their belief that they should be the opposite sex and that a sizable number are absolutely doing it for a sexual thrill? There are transwomen who are very happy to say that it's sexual for them so why do you insist on invalidating their lived experiences?

Surely we could all agree that any transwoman who is motivated by sexual desire (clothing, anatomy, bodily function) rather than a true belief that they have a "gendered soul" should be ostracised from the trans community?** Obviously many such people will claim to hold a belief when it's just a front that allows them to follow and act out their sexual feelings, but some readily admit it. History suggests that there have always been people who use the goodwill and belief of others to hide in plain sight e.g. the PIE infiltration of Liberty/NCCL and the seemingly neverending revelations that come out of the church (the latest being that Justin Welby didn't act on what he knew about John Smyth).

**All of us on this thread. I'm not suggesting that this would be possible in the trans community at large. What might swing it is the growing proportion of females who identify as male or non-binary if they become aware of what's going on. Although taking testosterone will increase their libido, it is unlikely that many will have been motivated to transition by sexual desire.

the thrill of dominating women by being in / taking over their spaces - knowingly not ‘passing’ but forcing their presence through current social expectations

Without a shred of evidence other than my own experience of older TW, I see this ^^ as their primary motivation. In adolescent/young autistic men, I see the driver/s coming from being highly susceptible to external commentary in online gaming communities paired with deeply rigid black and white thinking. Once the idea is implanted in their minds, it’s very difficult to change.

WPATH (Yogyakarta Principles) wanted all distinctions to be eliminated. They no doubt recognised that people were sympathetic to body/gender dysphoria but not to the various -philias. If all these medical conditions and fetishes were grouped together then there would be more chance of men being accepted as women, no matter the 'condition'.
Dentons iglyo_v3-1-2.pdf would agree - keep it quiet, keep it under the radar. Of course vipers have a way of unearthing and the cover was blown.

Once the idea is implanted in their minds, it’s very difficult to change.

Agreed. It's going to take a concerted effort from schools (to stop promoting gender identity belief and recognise the safeguarding risks within it), local authorities (to consider those vulnerable to this in their EHCPs), CAMHS (to assess mental health needs), Educational Psychology (to join the dots into Speech and Language Therapy for cognitive processing and Occupational Therapy for body disassociation), SALT and OT to deliver the appropriate therapeutic care and Autism organisations (to recognise and address the risk). EHCPs last until someone is 25 years old. This could make a real difference for autistic males and females.

None of that is simple to join up unless a safeguarding approach is taken, similar to Prevent. The parallels between gender identity belief and religious belief in this respect are clear: believing that we all have a gendered soul is as innocuous as believing in God/Allah. It becomes a safeguarding matter when such a belief is central to people being harmed i.e. the depth of someone's belief is combined with external influences that lead to harm. Whether that's harm to the self and/or others.

As a start point, the Nolan principles should be applied to everyone who works in a role associated with the public sector e.g. schools, local authorities, CAMHS. They should not be promoting gender identity belief in any way, such as flying Progress Pride flags or sharing preferred pronouns on email signatures.

Edited for typos

I don't get the transvestite vs AGP distinction that Dr Az makes.

This does seem an odd distinction. Isn't physical transition for a transvestite just an escalation of the same sexual motivation? Don't AGPs start by cross-dressing then escalate to body modification?

Isn’t that the old joke?
Q. What’s the difference between a transvestite and a trans woman?
A. About two years.

Yes. I've never thought of them as any different. Maybe just an escalation.

Being a particular type of ally is comparable to a religious belief - if we support the idea of gendered souls we show our faith and our kindness to other believers.

I dont think saying we are the ones with a mismatched gendered soul is similar to a religious belief at all - it would be like saying we are are the Gods. Christians for example are followers of jesus, not jesus. Saints aren't self appointed.

The majority of TRA and supporters are in reality libertarian. There actions are justified not from a faith basis, but from a rights base.

I cant help thinking that the different types of trans is just a mix of culture and personality type.

Bruce Jenner is going to have lots of surgery because hes surrounded by cosmetic surgeons.

Older guys are going to dress in old fashioned clothes, because their idea of sexy women is stuck in 1980s fashion. The younger ones will look more alternative and less like your mum because thats the what they find attractive.

The men who have surgery are more likely to be the ones who are impulsive. They are probably have a history of betting their life savings on one get rich scheme or changing their life styles completely in a whim.

Transvestites may have a personality that can and want to separate their sex life from their family or work lives. Whereas others cant. Nothing is different just the personality of the man?

I dont think saying we are the ones with a mismatched gendered soul is similar to a religious belief at all - it would be like saying we are are the Gods. Christians for example are followers of jesus, not jesus. Saints aren't self appointed.

Whether the "gendered soul" matches or not doesn't matter. It's the concept that we all have a gender identity, a soul that is separate from the body which has a sense of "gender" that is the belief. Some people genuinely hold this belief. Some people pretend to do so.

The majority of TRA and supporters are in reality libertarian. There actions are justified not from a faith basis, but from a rights base.

Some will genuinely believe that they have a gendered soul. Some will just be using the belief of others, including allies.

Whether the "gendered soul" matches or not doesn't matter. It's the concept that we all have a gender identity, a soul that is separate from the body which has a sense of "gender" that is the belief. Some people genuinely hold this belief. Some people pretend to do so.

And thats why the very first thing i said was what is similar to religion is the signposting of this gendered soul belief/concept.

Its pointless falsely framing this as a religious like phenomenon when it clearly isn't.

What is clear about trans ideology is how many different theories are used to justify it - its like left handedness, its a dsd of the brain, its because of difficult relationship with their mother, its another sexuality, its just gender non conformity.

Religions dont that that many conflicting reasons.

Its pointless falsely framing this as a completely religious like phenomenon when it clearly isn't.

I'm not sure what's being "falsely framed" here. The fact remains that many people actively believe that we all have a gendered soul (or are sufficiently agnostic to accept it at face value). This is what allows the whole thing to thrive, because too many people are ready to accept that there are people who have gendered souls that are trapped in the wrong body. That's what justifies all of it, from medical interventions through to women's sports and spaces. It's about "being kind" to those who society perceives have a gendered soul that is mismatched with their body. Those who feign this belief as a front for their actions are laughing all the way to the bank/ladies' changing rooms/gold medals etc.

All of this ^^.

Unfortunately it appears that once the idea has been implanted in the minds of educators, counsellors and health practitioners it is as equally difficult to change as it is for a young autistic male.

Religions dont that that many conflicting reasons.

Religions have many conflicting ideas within them. Some are in direct conflict with science (e.g. the idea that a virgin can give birth), some with each other (e.g. thou shalt not kill... except when you're fighting a war/excuting a murderer in some US states) etc. There are many more.

Part of holding a belief is to be at some level of peace with these conflicts. Another related part of this is having explanations which justify and prove why the belief is "true".

I should imagine most abusers who use a belief as a front don't waste much time worrying about the depth of their belief. Many will simply be thankful for the cover it provides.

Obviously not every Christian is an abuser, nor an active abuse facilitator. Likewise not everyone who believes in gendered souls will be either. Some people are passive facilitators without even realising it. The Be Kinders remind me of the congregation in this alleged scandal:

https://archive.ph/0TJoZ

His trial date keeps moving so I appreciate he is currently innocent of the charges. Either way, the congregation was passively supporting some odd practices.