Page 31 | The latest fallouts in GC world

Pluvia · 2024-12-11T11:06:27+00:00

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what. If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

CandyMaker · 18/12/2024 01:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 01:52

No one has any idea who you are, or any interest in any personal spat you may have had with KJK.

Interesting as many of you were repeatedly claiming on the thread earlier to know exactly who I was.

I did not have a spat with KJK. I said she was wrong about some feminist history fact. She personally attacked me.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 01:54

I know who they think you are. I don't agree, as I said.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 01:55

So not "many of you". We are individual women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 01:57

I did not have a spat with KJK. I said she was wrong about some feminist history fact. She personally attacked me.

That's between you and her, isn't it. If that's how it happened. Nothing to do with women here.

TempestTost · 18/12/2024 02:01

CandyMaker · 18/12/2024 01:52

And for the record, the commenter said she was not a feminist and I agreed.

Show quote history

You understand that the reason for that statement was because of the way the word has been subject to gatekeeping?

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 02:05

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 01:52

No one has any idea who you are, or any interest in any personal spat you may have had with KJK.

Do you own this board?

illinivich · 18/12/2024 02:06

My experience of it all is that lots of women learning about TRA from how its influenced policy - courts, schools, nhs, the media think that trans ideology needs to be removed from these organisations completely.

Women who have been exposed to it via queer theory think its been misinterpreted, and needs to be managed differently. Its why some supporting men in womens toilets but not prisions, and criticising disgust of AGP.

Feminists organising via left wing politics or from already established writing or activism effectively dismissed the call for removing trans ideology from organisations. They already had the means to organise meetings and write, so had more influence.

JKR increasing hardline Terfness has change things, as has a new labour government meaning that left wing groups are less likely to critise government policy.

The differences that have always been there have become more apparent.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 18/12/2024 02:06

I did not have a spat with KJK. I said she was wrong about some feminist history fact. She personally attacked me.

Personal attacks are wrong and will not be tolerated on Mumsnet. Which is why many of us choose to be here. I'm sorry that you experienced that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 02:10

illinivich · 18/12/2024 02:06

My experience of it all is that lots of women learning about TRA from how its influenced policy - courts, schools, nhs, the media think that trans ideology needs to be removed from these organisations completely.

Women who have been exposed to it via queer theory think its been misinterpreted, and needs to be managed differently. Its why some supporting men in womens toilets but not prisions, and criticising disgust of AGP.

Feminists organising via left wing politics or from already established writing or activism effectively dismissed the call for removing trans ideology from organisations. They already had the means to organise meetings and write, so had more influence.

JKR increasing hardline Terfness has change things, as has a new labour government meaning that left wing groups are less likely to critise government policy.

The differences that have always been there have become more apparent.

Yes, I think you make some excellent points.

Craftymam · 18/12/2024 02:17

AlisonDonut · 11/12/2024 16:13

Ok potted history time.

KJK was due to do a Women's place event in 2018 and KJK at the time was getting her you tube channel up and running and in one video said and I'm paraphrasing, that little girls shouldn't have to wear burkhas.

Because apparently it is racist to say that little girls should not have to wear burkhas. Even though her point was about men and their inability to control themselves not about it being a 'girl's right to wear her burkha'. She also tweeted about this.

WPUK disinvited her and from then on in, it was a campaign against her.

https://womansplaceuk.org/2022/06/22/womans-place-and-posie-parker/

Then back in the day, before KJK was doing tours regularly, she was due to go to the USA to meet up with parents of children who had fallen for gender ideology.

The first issue was that the hosts of the meetups were Hands Across the Aisle and the Heritage Foundation who are against abortion and obviously that is a black mark against her. She also had the audacity to ask Sarah McWotsit in Washington not to use the women's bathrooms.

A couple of other things occurred, during that time. One a far right person came and had a photo taken with KJK and KJK also said nice things about Tommy Robinson and his supposed outing of the Grooming Gangs.

Jean Hatchet was due to go on this trip and pulled out.

So by this point, whilst she was in the USA, the 'feminists' went all out to distance themselves from her.

But they didn't just let her get on with it, they smeared her time and again and got very worked up about her.

They were unhappy that she didn't vet the women coming to her events to speak and that the women were basically, any woman at all. They sidelined themselves as the academics who were the ones with the ologies and as such, felt that they were the ones that should be having the last say on the matter.

JCJ put herself front and centre and in 2020 started the Radical Notion. A publication that was apparently about feminisim. I am listed in the first edition as an original supporter. I never read a fucking word of it, it was all far too bloody up its own arse.

Anyway. The row raged for years with the Academics versus the Randoms. The self appointed mouthpieces versus women who just turned up in the flesh to speak to a microphone and get broadcast across the globe.

Then finally the Journos decided to wade in. But of course they were bound by IPSO regulations. Well, they say they were bound by them but its their choice to join in IPSO. Then the Podcast Bros all came on board and started ripping off pretty much every woman's work in this field.

In 2023 JCJ published a free download called Gender Critical Disputes which very firmly cast KJK as a baddie.

I can't remember if it was before or after but KJK basically called out these self appointed feminists for allowing Gender Identity Ideology to come into universities on their watch.

JCJ ever so often would just issue a 124 tweet thread about how someone they cannot name was a baddie, and put the cat amongst the pigeons every time the discussion settled down.

In Nov 2023 Genspect published a tweet with an AGP in a dress at their conference and it kicked off again, with those saying 'Genspect really shouldn't be profiling an AGP' and others saying they can't put dress codes onto people. Then they had promoted his book, and some said that he hadn't even paid for a ticket but had been invited. It was all very messy.

Earlier this year for whatever reason, Janice Turner decided that interviewing Debbie Hayton, and positioning him as the reasonable Trans Woman and stating that he 'respected women' literally blew people's minds. Those of us that have been following this know he wrote the guidelines to allow men and boys into female spaces in schools in the UK could not believe what the fuck was happening in front of our eyes.

Because people went 'WHAT THE FUCK', Janice called those people that were agog 'ultras' because we wouldn't repsect Debbie Haytons' Pronouns. Many people fell out as they decided which tribe they wanted to stick with. The 'no way' crowd or the 'Hayton is a reasonable trans woman' one. It still rages on.

Then Brianna Wu started doing the same and again, every time a TRa turns into a 'reasonable trans person' and goes on all the Podcast Bro interviews it turns into another round of the same old shit.

Then Michael Foran decided that legally, getting rid of the GRA would put the UK at odds with European Law and because he said so, if you don't agree with him, you are automatically a baddie and an Ultra.

Then the self appointed goodies get all upset every time someone joins up and does something they haven't approved of, and even though many of these are men and nothing to do with women, feminists get blamed for their behaviour and it all kicks off again.

Also, the self appointed purists want to speak to the government in secret and not have gobshites like KJK saying 'No' all over the shop.

Every week another new 'Some of the GC are mental' starts and we have to point out that being GC is just being a normal run of the mill person and it doesn't make you pure and obeyant and can you just all fuck off with this fucking shit please.

There are a million other issues along the way, this is just my observations. Every day another 5 weird things happen so I've missed hundreds.

Thank you for the summary! First concise one that sounds like it makes sense.

And does of any of it matter. No imo. It’s just noise. Don’t get swept up.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:18

PriOn1 · 11/12/2024 16:36

I saw this post, where I think JCJ is implying that “ultras” were being unrealistic in assuming it was possible to achieve a perfect standard when it comes to boundaries

https://x.com/janeclarejones/status/1817915114634289417

My understanding of the “ultra” position is that they do not accept that any man should ever be treated as if he was a woman, including not using requested pronouns, not centering men anywhere and not conceding that anyone needs to/really benefits from transition and thinks that aiming to remove the GRA (and maybe GR from the EA) is worth pushing.

That doesn’t imply (as I think JCJ is suggesting) that they assume an unrealistic version of what is actually possible. It’s more that their aims are to get as close to that position as possible and that therefore, taking a halfway point carries a risk because rational people who have power, might then assume that position is correct. To give an example, reading the Cass report, you might assume Cass believes in the existence of “trans children” and “gender identity” and that there are some children who would benefit from transitioning, if only we could work out which ones.

She may, or may not, but (I believe) her report suggests she does. LaScapligliata and other “ultras” think that it is risky for logical people to try to “meet transactivists in the middle”. There are various medical groups that are trying that approach to make themselves look reasonable, in the hope that it will allow movement in the direction they/we want, but “ultras” see potential problems with that approach, because you should never compromise yourself by saying things you don’t believe are true.

So for me, that JCJ post is kind of a strawman. “Ultras” don’t expect to achieve those absolute boundaries, but they do think we should be aiming for them.

What nonsense did I just read in that tweet? Women having the right to absolute hard boundaries concerning our bodies is basically Feminism 101. A woman's "no" to sex is the last word and, if men respected that, it would grant protection and security against rape. This isn't patriarchal, it's upholding women's human rights. It's not too far a leap to say women shouldn't be obliged to change our clothes or shower in front of a man and that that is also an absolute hard boundary that we are allowed to have.

KJK's question of "does my teenaged daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis" seems very pertinent here.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 02:20

KJK's question of "does my teenaged daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis" seems very pertinent here.

Yes and I think that's why so many people can relate to her in a way they can't or don't to more academic rhetoric.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:27

that it is risky for logical people to try to “meet transactivists in the middle”.

"Meet me in the middle" said the dishonest man. I stepped forwards and he stepped back. "Meet me in the middle", he said again. I stood fast and said "nah marra, you can come to me".

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 02:29

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:18

What nonsense did I just read in that tweet? Women having the right to absolute hard boundaries concerning our bodies is basically Feminism 101. A woman's "no" to sex is the last word and, if men respected that, it would grant protection and security against rape. This isn't patriarchal, it's upholding women's human rights. It's not too far a leap to say women shouldn't be obliged to change our clothes or shower in front of a man and that that is also an absolute hard boundary that we are allowed to have.

KJK's question of "does my teenaged daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis" seems very pertinent here.

Show quote history

If you read the tweet and scroll up you can see the thread and there is a link to an article, no where does JCJ say anything about women not having a right to boundaries concerning our bodies.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:39

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/12/2024 02:20

KJK's question of "does my teenaged daughter have the right to use a changing room without seeing an adult penis" seems very pertinent here.

Yes and I think that's why so many people can relate to her in a way they can't or don't to more academic rhetoric.

Also, isn't academic rhetoric what that slippery Butler woman (and I don't mean Josephine) trades in? So you're automatically suspect if you talk that crap yourself, no matter whether you think women can have penises.

The fight for sex to matter will be lost or won by ordinary people, not academics, ultimately. University types can talk Descartes "I think therefore I am" and ask how we know that stuff is real and if we even exist until they're blue in the face, but when they get hungry, they'll have no doubt about whether the food they are about tuck into is real.

Likewise, they can ponder about whether sex is truly a binary to their hearts' contents, but the rest of us know which class of humans needs a pregnancy test after a rape and which class of humans causes that test to be needed.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:43

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 02:29

If you read the tweet and scroll up you can see the thread and there is a link to an article, no where does JCJ say anything about women not having a right to boundaries concerning our bodies.

Show quote history

I'm not on TwiX.

I'm reading the screenshotted bit where JCJ is claiming that insisting on hard absolute boundaries won't make us safer and is patriarchal. She doesn't qualify that she only means some boundaries in the bit I can see.

Women's spaces being for women only strikes me as the kind of hard boundary that will make us safer.

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 02:49

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:43

I'm not on TwiX.

I'm reading the screenshotted bit where JCJ is claiming that insisting on hard absolute boundaries won't make us safer and is patriarchal. She doesn't qualify that she only means some boundaries in the bit I can see.

Women's spaces being for women only strikes me as the kind of hard boundary that will make us safer.

Show quote history

OK well your post is a completely wrong. This is exactly what has been happening to JCJ, people taking what she said out of context, or like your post, making something up out of thin air because they haven't read what she said.

EverybodyLovesString · 18/12/2024 02:52

Academic theory is many things - it's people looking at the legal side of the ramifications of the gender recognition act, it's academics like Jo Pheonix studying criminology and the effects of prison on working class women, it's sociologists challenging how the UK census collects information on sex and gender, it's women making submissions to parliament and participating in policy development. These are all essential to the success of turning around an ideology that is deeply entrenched in institutions. Maya Forstater's court case drew on some of that work, as have the cases of many other women.

Ordinary women protesting on the street, writing to their MPs are also very important. Politicians need to know that the public do not want radical ideologies smuggled into policies and practices. Both these fronts need to be won - the academic and the popular.

I don't see the need to disparage women working within their own spheres, in their own time, to defeat gender nonsense.

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 18/12/2024 02:54

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 02:49

OK well your post is a completely wrong. This is exactly what has been happening to JCJ, people taking what she said out of context, or like your post, making something up out of thin air because they haven't read what she said.

Show quote history

Thinking that you can maintain infinitely hard boundaries in all circumstances, and that that will deliver a fantasy of absolute security is patriarchal.

It's not patriarchal to maintain boundaries. End of.

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 03:11

Yea you are still completely wrong about what she saying. You can quote all you like from that one tweet, you are still wrong, and it doesn't seem to bother you that you've twice misrepresented her.

Heggettypeg · 18/12/2024 03:48

EverybodyLovesString · 18/12/2024 02:52

Academic theory is many things - it's people looking at the legal side of the ramifications of the gender recognition act, it's academics like Jo Pheonix studying criminology and the effects of prison on working class women, it's sociologists challenging how the UK census collects information on sex and gender, it's women making submissions to parliament and participating in policy development. These are all essential to the success of turning around an ideology that is deeply entrenched in institutions. Maya Forstater's court case drew on some of that work, as have the cases of many other women.

Ordinary women protesting on the street, writing to their MPs are also very important. Politicians need to know that the public do not want radical ideologies smuggled into policies and practices. Both these fronts need to be won - the academic and the popular.

I don't see the need to disparage women working within their own spheres, in their own time, to defeat gender nonsense.

Yes to this. For example, what woke me up to all the TRA malarkey was a news item about the hounding of Kathleen Stock. I bought "Material Girls" to see what all the fuss was about and found it a very measured and clear explanation. Academic discourse doesn't have to be a bog of Butlerian blethers; in fact I would be very suspicious about the quality of any that is.

JessaWoo · 18/12/2024 03:59

CandyMaker · 18/12/2024 01:07

Why do you spend so much time criticising academics? It just seems so nasty.

It's fashionable. It's a trend driven by the alt-right, so of course they're doing it too. So predictable.

BezMills · 18/12/2024 04:05

Who has "mumsnet are thicks being influenced by the alt right" on their bingo card?

AlisonDonut · 18/12/2024 04:05

AnotherDayComeMonday · 18/12/2024 02:49

OK well your post is a completely wrong. This is exactly what has been happening to JCJ, people taking what she said out of context, or like your post, making something up out of thin air because they haven't read what she said.

Show quote history

JCJ was talking about the boundaries of Hearts of Oak filming the Brighton event and live streaming it in that essay and then went on a bazillion word rant about Tommy Robinson.

KJKs stance is she doesn't care who live streams her events and because she doesn't police them, anyone can live stream them. Also, because she doesn't know each individual person on the planet and their histories, how in the world would she know who is setting up a camera at an event, when the whole point of the event is to publicise women speaking and get a message out to the world.

The point of these events as it keeps having to be repeated, is that anyone can show up. It's in a public place, open to any citizen of the UK and anyone else who is in the country at the time. This concept is not difficult to understand.

If JCJ keeps getting misrepresented, maybe reduce the word count so that people don't have to take a days annual leave just to read one essay in order to follow one tweets context.

JessaWoo · 18/12/2024 04:07

BezMills · 18/12/2024 04:05

Who has "mumsnet are thicks being influenced by the alt right" on their bingo card?

Was "thick" in my post, Bez? No. Only you brought 'thick' up.