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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The latest fallouts in GC world

976 replies

Pluvia · 11/12/2024 11:06

My terfing energy has been focussed elsewhere in recent months and I haven't been here or on TwiX or social media much. Now I've taken responsibility for tweeting/ comms on behalf of a small but potentially significant LGB group and I discover that there seems to be something going on — another schism — in GC world. Jane Clare Jones's name seems to be coming up a lot. Something seems to have gone on but I can't work out what.

If it was my own account I'd just ignore, but the followers of this account are bringing it up and seem to expect an opinion to be expressed or a side to be taken. Also I'm seeing a lot about 'ultras' and 'lites', which is new to me. Can anyone enlighten me? I need to tread carefully.

OP posts:
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NonLinguisticRhetoricIsMyKryptonite · 17/12/2024 17:31

Some of the discussions on this thread about appropriate recognition for carers, the role of home education (especially when connected with safeguarding concerns, SEN etc.) and the family, feel like they'd be useful contributions to the NHS 10 Year Plan conversations.

TempestTost · 17/12/2024 17:43

themostspecialelfintheworkshop · 17/12/2024 13:21

The problem is that women's experience is not valued. If a man took a career gap and went to another country and did some kind of community project that would be seen as a positive. Raising the next generation (often getting involved with or running community projects at he same time) is seen as easy, when we all know it's not at all. Yes, there is ageism too which men can experience but there is also discrimination specifically against mothers imo.

Those skills are overlooked and ignored. When I was in my 20s I did some policy development work for a government department, there were no mothers there at all. One senior woman, who didn't have kids, older men who've never done childcare and bright 20 somethings fresh out of uni with no knowledge of the pointy end of life

Look at the policies during COVID that said two children out of school during the second lockdown couldn't go on a walk together whilst 50% of the class was in school. Literally insane, ignorant of child well-being and flat out cruel.

That's before you get to the more serious safeguarding failures for women and children. Obvious that policies were made by men or people with no experience of life! And society is worse off. I know so many women sidelined after a career gap, who could bring enormous value to the economy. Capable, bright women who society relies on to get essential things done yet doesn't value in the workplace. The untapped potential is huge. @UrsulasHerbBag sign me up to your agency!

I don't know about this.

I think the main issue is really age. Women coming back to work after a long enough time that their previous employment is not open tend to be into their 40s or older. I was about 44 when I had to go back to work.

I personally like hiring older men and women, they are resilient and reliable, but I see a lot of men in their 50s who have had a career which they have had to leave - the military, maybe some industrial job that is not in demand or which is really a young men's kind of job. So they retrain or are trying to transfer their skills.

They have a really hard time getting work. It's that gap, and I think it is the same thing for women who have been in childcare, people don't seem to know what to do with it. They think they will be past it as employees.

I've wondered if it's in part because a lot of people managing hiring have never had a major career break, and so can't relate. They think it means less drive, or less commitment, or less "success".

ArabellaScott · 17/12/2024 17:44

Floisme · 17/12/2024 17:16

While we're talking insults and 'proper feminists' can anyone remember who used 'white supremacist Barbie'?

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-the-near-murder-of-kellie

Lots of info in this fairly long article. Claire Heuchan is the short answer.

Anatomy of the Near Murder of Kellie-Jay Keen

How Legacy Media and Purity Feminists Created the Blueprint for the Auckland Mobs

https://savageminds.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-the-near-murder-of-kellie

TempestTost · 17/12/2024 17:49

AlisonDonut · 17/12/2024 14:25

Precisely. And pointing this out also upset the Professional Feminist people as they let feminism as a concept get taken over in the universities.

Oops.

I think it was captured well before the women's studies departments were renamed to gender studies. A good friend of mine did her degree when it was still the former, she said all the ideas were well established then that are doctrine now. She got through the degree by keeping quiet.

Floisme · 17/12/2024 17:58

Thanks @ArabellaScott I've only had time so far to skim that article but it's a useful reminder of how long the verbal attacks on KJK have been going on - and some illustrious feminist names involved too

It's also reminded me of how they've also gone for Kara Dansky.

teawamutu · 17/12/2024 18:24

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/12/2024 12:22

I was also told that JCJ has never worked.

Not sure about that but her parents gave her a flat and then she complained about how it was decorated.

x.com/braddockbessie/status/1826209710103580915?s=48&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

x.com/ajatheempress/status/1826224941961736202?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

I'd missed this. Interesting.

JCJ's problem with KJK isn't just, as portrayed, a battle for the heart and soul of feminism then - it's a straight case of reacting to a commercial competitor.

Floisme · 17/12/2024 18:27

Actually I thought some of the Twitter reaction to JCJ admitting her parents had bought her a house was really unpleasant.

TinselAngel · 17/12/2024 18:28

I think it's also class based (I know I say everything is), the gentry left are supposed to do the improving and the likes of me and KJK are supposed to agree to be improved. It's bad form and ungrateful for us to disagree how to go about it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 18:28

KJK doesn't actually claim to be a feminist, so I'm not sure why JCJ is so exercised about her.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 18:29

I think it's also class based (I know I say everything is), the gentry left are supposed to do the improving and the likes of me and KJK are supposed to agree to be improved. It's bad form and ungrateful for us to disagree how to go about it.

This.

TinselAngel · 17/12/2024 18:30

I'm supposed to be grey rocking after some pretty astounding attacks by JCJ on me on Twitter but I seem to not be able to resist commenting here 😬

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/12/2024 19:52

CandyMaker · 17/12/2024 16:15

LOL!! You have a cheek given how women have treated me on this thread.

Your posts remind me of someone who used to post not that long ago......she'd continually provoke, make accusations, refute - for reasons uncertain....and then complain she was beiing subject to pile ons, when people challenged her. I could never work out what her motive was for posting on this board in the first place. There was never really any commonality - which is surely one thing you look for when choosing a forum to inhabit.

It is not necessary to agree on everything, but you tend to want to be around people who have some level of common cause or interest as yourself.

Many GC people with public profiles have posted here over the years, but a few never have...and i can only asssume they do not want to be accused of guilt by association with views or persepctives that don't strictly align with their own.

TinselAngel · 17/12/2024 19:58

* Your posts remind me of someone who used to post not that long ago.*

A person who was particularly active on pro JCJ and on anti KJK threads?

DrSpartacular · 17/12/2024 20:04

TinselAngel · 17/12/2024 19:58

* Your posts remind me of someone who used to post not that long ago.*

A person who was particularly active on pro JCJ and on anti KJK threads?

I assumed she'd been banned. She was always quite open about her name-changes too.

CandyMaker · 17/12/2024 20:05

Whoever that is, it is not me.

Datun · 17/12/2024 20:26

Your posts remind me of someone who used to post not that long ago......she'd continually provoke, make accusations, refute - for reasons uncertain....and then complain she was beiing subject to pile ons, when people challenged her.

Yes. Helle, I believe, coined it negative feedback farming.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/12/2024 20:27

DrSpartacular · 17/12/2024 20:04

I assumed she'd been banned. She was always quite open about her name-changes too.

I’d forgotten! But now remember

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/12/2024 20:31

teawamutu · 17/12/2024 18:24

I'd missed this. Interesting.

JCJ's problem with KJK isn't just, as portrayed, a battle for the heart and soul of feminism then - it's a straight case of reacting to a commercial competitor.

The brass neck to harp on and on about working class issues while getting a free flat off her parents then having the temerity to whinge it was “derelict” needs to be known. People gave money to TRN in good faith after all.

CandyMaker · 17/12/2024 20:31

Surely this is trolling?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/12/2024 20:32

I don't believe this is the same poster, FWIW.

AnotherDayComeMonday · 17/12/2024 21:29

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/12/2024 20:31

The brass neck to harp on and on about working class issues while getting a free flat off her parents then having the temerity to whinge it was “derelict” needs to be known. People gave money to TRN in good faith after all.

What is this? I haven't heard about this before.

AnotherDayComeMonday · 17/12/2024 21:32

TinselAngel · 17/12/2024 18:28

I think it's also class based (I know I say everything is), the gentry left are supposed to do the improving and the likes of me and KJK are supposed to agree to be improved. It's bad form and ungrateful for us to disagree how to go about it.

Is KJK working class? Is JCJ middle class? any class issue between the two has never come up as far as I can see.

UtopiaPlanitia · 17/12/2024 21:37

Germaine Greer (The Female Eunuch) very aptly describes the tensions among women seeking liberation. The quotes below presciently describe the differing approaches of Let Women Speak and WPUK.

And, of the methods and options that Greer sees as being available to women to fight for liberations, groups like Let Women Speak and Women’s Rights Network seem the closest to what Greer argues will benefit most women most immediately.

“…The New Left has been the forcing house for most movements, and for many of them liberation is dependent upon the coming of the classless society and the withering away of the state.

…The organized liberationists are a well-publicized minority; the same faces appear every time a feminist issue is discussed. Inevitably they are presented as the leaders of a movement which is essentially leaderless. They are not much nearer to providing a revolutionary strategy than they ever were; demonstrating, compiling reading lists and sitting on committees are not themselves liberated behaviour, especially when they are still embedded in a context of housework and feminine wiles. As means of educating the people who must take action to liberate themselves, their effectiveness is limited. The concept of liberty implied by such liberation is vacuous; at worst it is defined by the condition of men, themselves unfree, and at best it is left undefined in a world of very limited possibilities. On the one hand, feminists can be found who serve the notion of equality ‘social, legal, occupational, economic, political and moral’, whose enemy is discrimination, whose means are competition and demand. On the other hand there are those who cherish an ideal of a better life, which will follow when a better life is assured for all by the correct political means. To women disgusted with conventional political methods, whether constitutional or totalitarian or revolutionary, neither alternative can make much appeal. The housewife who must wait for the success of world revolution for her liberty might be excused for losing hope, while conservative political methods can invent no way in which the economically necessary unit of the one-man family could be diversified. But there is another dimension in which she can find motive and cause for action, although she might not find a blue-print for Utopia. She could begin not by changing the world, but by re-assessing herself.

…To be free to start out, and to find companions for the journey is as far as we need to see from where we stand. The first exercise of the free woman is to devise her own mode of revolt, a mode which will reflect her own independence and originality. The more clearly the forms of oppression emerge in her understanding, the more clearly she can see the shape of future action. In the search for political awareness there is no substitute for confrontation. It would be too easy to present women with yet another form of self-abnegation, more opportunities for appetence and forlorn hope, but women have had enough bullying. They have been led by the nose and every other way until they have to acknowledge that, like every one else, they are lost. A feminist elite might seek to lead uncomprehending women in another arbitrary direction, training them as a task force in a battle that might, that ought never to eventuate. If there is a pitched battle women will lose, because the best man never wins; the consequences of militancy do not disappear when the need for militancy is over. Freedom is fragile and must be protected. To sacrifice it, even as a temporary measure, is to betray it. It is not a question of telling women what to do next, or even what to want to do next. The hope in which this book was written is that women will discover that they have a will; once that happens they will be able to tell us how and what they want.

…In the computer kingdom the centres of political power have become centres of impotence, but even so, nothing in the book precludes the use of the political machine, although reliance on it may be contra-indicated. The most telling criticisms will come from my sisters of the left, the Maoists, the Trots, the I.S., the S.D.S., because of my fantasy that it might be possible to leap the steps of revolution and arrive somehow at liberty and communism without strategy or revolutionary discipline.”

EverybodyLovesString · 17/12/2024 22:13

AnotherDayComeMonday · 17/12/2024 21:32

Is KJK working class? Is JCJ middle class? any class issue between the two has never come up as far as I can see.

They’re both middle-class, university-educated women with limited work histories. What they have in common is they had the freedom to do full-time activism because they were being partially or wholly supported by family.

The class angle often pops up (usually by supporters of KJK) because they want to frame KJK as a working-class woman oppressed by middle-class snobs. It’s an appealing narrative but not really true. Not helped, of course, by that incredibly ill-judged issue of The Radical Notion attacking KJK.

I think KJK and JCJ have both done good work. I don't like the infighting and the twitter pile-ons and I don't see any need to pick sides.

ellenback21 · 17/12/2024 22:20

EverybodyLovesString · 17/12/2024 22:13

They’re both middle-class, university-educated women with limited work histories. What they have in common is they had the freedom to do full-time activism because they were being partially or wholly supported by family.

The class angle often pops up (usually by supporters of KJK) because they want to frame KJK as a working-class woman oppressed by middle-class snobs. It’s an appealing narrative but not really true. Not helped, of course, by that incredibly ill-judged issue of The Radical Notion attacking KJK.

I think KJK and JCJ have both done good work. I don't like the infighting and the twitter pile-ons and I don't see any need to pick sides.

What good work has JCJ done? I hadn't heard of her until recently (Serious, non-snarky question)

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